(C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Xing
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xing »

Ahzoh wrote:"good" and "evil" are arbitrary, they are the same as or equivalent virtues and vice. As for virtues and vices, I refer to the dictionary definition of them.
The point is that in 'normal' moral discourse, 'good' is how people should strive to be, while your system seems to suggest that people should strive for some intermediate or balance between 'good' and 'evil'.

As I read your post, perhaps your system ultimately amounts to the more trivial claim that it's occasionally jutifiable to perform actions that under normal circumstances would be 'evil' (or at least 'bad'). But in regular moral discourse, 'evil' actions may typically be justified only in those situations in which it's necessary to avoid some greater evil - not because it's somehow intrinsically desirable to balance good and evil.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Xing wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:"good" and "evil" are arbitrary, they are the same as or equivalent virtues and vice. As for virtues and vices, I refer to the dictionary definition of them.
The point is that in 'normal' moral discourse, 'good' is how people should strive to be, while your system seems to suggest that people should strive for some intermediate or balance between 'good' and 'evil'.

As I read your post, perhaps your system ultimately amounts to the more trivial claim that it's occasionally jutifiable to perform actions that under normal circumstances would be 'evil' (or at least 'bad'). But in regular moral discourse, 'evil' actions may typically be justified only in those situations in which it's necessary to avoid some greater evil - not because it's somehow intrinsically desirable to balance good and evil.
Yes, that sounds about right.

On top of this the philosophy uses moral dilemmas as examples of balance

Also it's not entire Black and White morality, but perhaps Grey and Gray:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ayMorality
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn »

Where and when could one fit a sedentary culture into our earth, without changing our history?
There's probably a whole somewhere where a kinda developed culture could fit.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

loglorn wrote:Where and when could one fit a sedentary culture into our earth, without changing our history?
There's probably a whole somewhere where a kinda developed culture could fit.
(I bet you meant "hole". Either way, it would help if you explained some what you meant.)
Undersea? Especially under the Pacific or under the Arctic?
Antarctica?
How about the bottom of Lake Baikal?
Maybe the upper regions of the tallest extensive mountain ranges? Are the Himalayas extensive enough?
Or of the most extensive tall mountain ranges? Are the Andes tall enough?
Does the Australian Outback count as a "hole"? What of Greenland's un-permanently-inhabited areas? What about the Sahara?
Just a few suggestions.

You said "without changing our history".
I think all of those places might work without changing history up until about 1500 CE; all or almost all up until about 1600 CE; and most up until about 1700 CE.

In the 18th century CE the world was being explored more and more by the West Europeans (who at that time are the ones whose history counts as "our history"), so places were dropping off the list of places where such a hole could be found after 1700 CE; nevertheless, I guess most or many of the places I suggested above would still be available to put your "hole" in without changing our history until about 1800 CE.

The bulk of the West Europeans' exploration was completed by the end of the 19th century CE, so only a few of those places would still be "holes" after around 1900 CE, if you wanted to keep history the same until then.
I think parts of East Africa's Great Rift Valley may have been available almost until 1900 CE, but become unavailable a few years to a few decades before then.

By 2000 CE (indeed, by around 1930 or 1940) other non-Western or non-European countries' histories had become relevant to "our history", and all of the above places had been "explored" by some industrial civilization or other to some degree (maybe just by flying over):
EXCEPT for under the oceans.
And I don't include the continental shelves as part of the "unexplored" areas.
By "unexplored areas" I mean benthic parts of the abyssal plain that are more than 150 meters below sea-level.
Or maybe, more than 400 meters below sea-level (like the bottom of the Dead Sea).
Or even more than 1 kilometer below sea-level (like the bottom of Lake Baikal).
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 06 May 2014 16:12, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn »

eldin raigmore wrote: Undersea? Especially under the Pacific or under the Arctic?
no Atlantis for today.
eldin raigmore wrote: Antarctica?
Does not seem that much population friendly, especially since i'm aiming at sedentary populations and Antarctica doesn't really help agriculture.
eldin raigmore wrote: How about the bottom of Lake Baikal?
Maybe at its margins. (that's a cool lake, you just introduced me to a new ramdom fact)
eldin raigmore wrote: Maybe the upper regions of the tallest extensive mountain ranges? Are the Himalayas extensive enough?
Or of the most extensive tall mountain ranges? Are the Andes tall enough?
Mountain ranges sound promising, i am currently considering the Altai Mountains.
eldin raigmore wrote: Does the Australian Outback count as a "hole"? What of Greenland's un-permanently-inhabited areas? What about the Sahara?
Just a few suggestions.
Those probably posit the same problems to agriculture development Antarctica does (maybe not as radically)

Now that i think about it i think i should have posted that question in the Anthropology & History forum...
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

loglorn wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:....
I edited the post to which you just replied, not realizing that you were replying while I was editing.
You might want to take another look at it, to see whether any of the edits are interesting to you.

loglorn wrote:Now that i think about it i think i should have posted that question in the Anthropology & History forum...
Maybe or maybe not.
That subforum, if I understand correctly (maybe I'm wrong?), is for real and realistic Anthropology and History.
The facts you are after belong on that forum; but maybe your question doesn't.
You could ask a mod. That might be more polite; or it might be slower.
Or just take a gamble and post your question on that subform too. That might be faster; or it might be less polite.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn »

eldin raigmore wrote:
loglorn wrote:Now that i think about it i think i should have posted that question in the Anthropology & History forum...
Maybe or maybe not.
That subforum, if I understand correctly (maybe I'm wrong?), is for real and realistic Anthropology and History.
The facts you are after belong on that forum; but maybe your question doesn't.
You could ask a mod. That might be more polite; or it might be slower.
Or just take a gamble and post your question on that subform too. That might be faster; or it might be less polite.
I'll just keep it here then, but some of the other things i want to ask probably fit there.
eldin raigmore wrote:
loglorn wrote:Where and when could one fit a sedentary culture into our earth, without changing our history?
There's probably a hole somewhere where a kinda developed culture could fit.
You said "without changing our history".
I think all of those places might work without changing history up until about 1500 CE; all or almost all up until about 1600 CE; and most up until about 1700 CE.

In the 18th century CE the world was being explored more and more by the West Europeans (who at that time are the ones whose history counts as "our history"), so places were dropping of the list of places where such a hole could be found after 1700 CE; nevertheless, I guess most or many of the places I suggested above would still be available to put your "hole" in without changing our history until about 1800 CE.

The bulk of the West Europeans' exploration was completed by the end of the 19th century CE, so only a few of those places would still be "holes" after around 1900 CE, if you wanted to keep history the same until then.
I think parts of East Africa's Great Rift Valley may have been available almost until 1900 CE, but become unavailable a few years to a few decades before then.

By 2000 CE other non-Western or non-European countries' histories had become relevant to "our history", and all of the above places had been "explored" by some industrial civilization or other to some degree (maybe just by flying over):
EXCEPT for under the oceans.
And I don't include the continental shelves as part of the "unexplored" areas.
By "unexplored areas" I mean benthic parts of the abyssal plain that are more than 150 meters below sea-level.
Or maybe, more than 400 meters below sea-level (like the bottom of the Dead Sea).
Or even more than 1 kilometer below sea-level (like the bottom of Lake Baikal).
That gives my a very large time span to work with. Fitting cultures into our Earth is easier than it seems
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by atman »

loglorn wrote:Where and when could one fit a sedentary culture into our earth, without changing our history?
There's probably a whole somewhere where a kinda developed culture could fit.
There are many possible places, even though as eldin said you're going to let your people join the mainstream of history sooner or later. They will get found out and contacted anyway. And when these people are contacted, history will be changed a little, but hopefully not in a very big way.

Some possible places/scenarios:

- mountain areas like for instance the Caucasus or the Alps... once I had an idea for an Alpine fictional culture: what if a small residual population of whatever origin (Tyrrhenian, I-E, something else) still lived in Tyrol or the Dolomites until the late middle ages? What if, when this culture was contacted around 1300-1400 or so and some younger members of it learned foreign languages and sciences, and decided to translate and write it all down for their fellow tribesmen? As this culture was illiterate, one of them may have developed a new writing system, somewhat similar to Latin script but not quite, to write a compendium of his people's agricultural/medical/ritual knowledge plus what he had learned traveling in Europe. But these efforts were ultimately vain; these people end up assimilated or die from some new (to them) disease. Not much archeological evidence remains of them, their most notable heritage may be an undeciphered book now kept in the US. They call it the Voynich manuscript. :idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript

- the Altai/Baikal Lake area (and Siberia in general) are so full of different and obscure cultures that adding one wouldn't be so noticeable. One attempt is Ocets, a fictional Siberian language created by Martin Posthumus, conlanger extraordinaire. See http://www.veche.net/ochets/index.html

- the Kerguelen Islands in the southern Indian Ocean. Agreed, it's one of the most isolated places on the planet. Agreed, it's not very plausible that some human group could end up there in ancient times. Agreed, it isn't a very hospitable place to live in. But still...

- Macaronesia (the Azores, the Canaries, Madeira, Cape Verde). I've been working (at a snail's pace) on a Hellenic language/culture who'd live there in the present instead of its real-life inhabitants. But Atlántiqa is the complicated language of a complicated people, while I'm a complicated man with too many things to do. I don't know if I will ever get it to the point where it's usable. The inspirations for Atlántiqa are top-level, incredibly well-designed a posteriori conlangs like Novegradian, Brithenig, Old Albic...

- And if all else fails, there are always those places (New Guinea, the Amazons) where you can find lots of cultural/linguistic diversity. Adding one more piece to the puzzle won't hurt.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn »

atman wrote: - mountain areas like for instance the Caucasus or the Alps... once I had an idea for an Alpine fictional culture: what if a small residual population of whatever origin (Tyrrhenian, I-E, something else) still lived in Tyrol or the Dolomites until the late middle ages? What if, when this culture was contacted around 1300-1400 or so and some younger members of it learned foreign languages and sciences, and decided to translate and write it all down for their fellow tribesmen? As this culture was illiterate, one of them may have developed a new writing system, somewhat similar to Latin script but not quite, to write a compendium of his people's agricultural/medical/ritual knowledge plus what he had learned traveling in Europe. But these efforts were ultimately vain; these people end up assimilated or die from some new (to them) disease. Not much archeological evidence remains of them, their most notable heritage may be an undeciphered book now kept in the US. They call it the Voynich manuscript. :idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript
That's an awesome idea. You should work on that some day.
atman wrote:There are many possible places, even though as eldin said you're going to let your people join the mainstream of history sooner or later. They will get found out and contacted anyway. And when these people are contacted, history will be changed a little, but hopefully not in a very big way.

Some possible places/scenarios:


- the Altai/Baikal Lake area (and Siberia in general) are so full of different and obscure cultures that adding one wouldn't be so noticeable. One attempt is Ocets, a fictional Siberian language created by Martin Posthumus, conlanger extraordinaire. See http://www.veche.net/ochets/index.html

- the Kerguelen Islands in the southern Indian Ocean. Agreed, it's one of the most isolated places on the planet. Agreed, it's not very plausible that some human group could end up there in ancient times. Agreed, it isn't a very hospitable place to live in. But still...

- Macaronesia (the Azores, the Canaries, Madeira, Cape Verde). I've been working (at a snail's pace) on a Hellenic language/culture who'd live there in the present instead of its real-life inhabitants. But Atlántiqa is the complicated language of a complicated people, while I'm a complicated man with too many things to do. I don't know if I will ever get it to the point where it's usable. The inspirations for Atlántiqa are top-level, incredibly well-designed a posteriori conlangs like Novegradian, Brithenig, Old Albic...

- And if all else fails, there are always those places (New Guinea, the Amazons) where you can find lots of cultural/linguistic diversity. Adding one more piece to the puzzle won't hurt.
What i have:

Around 1500 BC the guys who used to hang around the Altai Mountains had a sudden urge to migrate and went far far away from the Altai, the ancestrals of my people (that have yet to be named) that were living in some obscure cranny up the mountains went down and populated the valley below. They are supposed to have established sedentary organization around 1200 BC along the beggining of the Irtysh River.
As i have more than 3000 years to play with i don't know if they'll end up extinct or if they'll be one of the innumerable linguistic minorities in Russia/China.
I'll probably do diachronic work somewhere down the road, and end with more than one language (what i have on allophony and dialects kinda asks to be diachronicked)
That's already enough ambition for today.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by atman »

loglorn wrote: atman wrote:
- mountain areas like for instance the Caucasus or the Alps... once I had an idea for an Alpine fictional culture: what if a small residual population of whatever origin (Tyrrhenian, I-E, something else) still lived in Tyrol or the Dolomites until the late middle ages? What if, when this culture was contacted around 1300-1400 or so and some younger members of it learned foreign languages and sciences, and decided to translate and write it all down for their fellow tribesmen? As this culture was illiterate, one of them may have developed a new writing system, somewhat similar to Latin script but not quite, to write a compendium of his people's agricultural/medical/ritual knowledge plus what he had learned traveling in Europe. But these efforts were ultimately vain; these people end up assimilated or die from some new (to them) disease. Not much archeological evidence remains of them, their most notable heritage may be an undeciphered book now kept in the US. They call it the Voynich manuscript. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript

That's an awesome idea. You should work on that some day.
I'm afraid I don't have time [:|] , and I'd never find enough motivation for a project like this. Atlántiqa is already pretty demanding, but for that language (subgroup) I can always find a little time and motivation.

Anyway, I posted this idea on the CBB also to see whether someone would like it and use it himself. If anyone is interested, I could give further details on this what-if scenario.
loglorn wrote:What i have:

Around 1500 BC the guys who used to hang around the Altai Mountains had a sudden urge to migrate and went far far away from the Altai, the ancestrals of my people (that have yet to be named) that were living in some obscure cranny up the mountains went down and populated the valley below. They are supposed to have established sedentary organization around 1200 BC along the beggining of the Irtysh River.
As i have more than 3000 years to play with i don't know if they'll end up extinct or if they'll be one of the innumerable linguistic minorities in Russia/China.
I'll probably do diachronic work somewhere down the road, and end with more than one language (what i have on allophony and dialects kinda asks to be diachronicked)
That's already enough ambition for today.
It's a nice idea, and as you say an ambitious one too. Modeling three millennia of linguistic changes is quite a lot of work. Good luck! [:)]
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Mugitus »

I'm developing a conculture in my spare time that lives in a jungle environment in longhouse like structures. They practice a form of garden agriculture and relocate after a few seasons. What I was wondering is it would be more efficient to abandon the longhouses after this and construct new ones on the new plot, or somehow deconstruct the old ones and bring the wood to the new location. Keep in mind these people are a tribal society. Thanks!
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Mugitus wrote:,,, it would be more efficient to abandon the longhouses after this and construct new ones on the new plot ...
is my opinion.
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Post by Mugitus »

Thanks for the second opinion, it was holding me back in writing more [:S]
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Mugitus wrote:Thanks for the second opinion, it was holding me back in writing more [:S]
In that case, my opinion is "whichever one makes it easier to write".
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Post by Salmoneus »

That is more likely, in my opinion. But a realistic compromise might be building a new house, but incorporating an element of the old. Houses often have particular features that symbolise the house, and saving that from the old house could make the new house be the 'same' house, as it were. Depending on culture, those features might be a cornerpost, a door lintel or post, or threshold stone, or the beam at the crest of the house, or a carving attached to the summit, or a hearth stone, etc etc.

EDIT: sorry, but I feel obligated to pun: For some cultures, 'home is where the hearth is'.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Mugitus »

Salmoneus wrote:That is more likely, in my opinion. But a realistic compromise might be building a new house, but incorporating an element of the old. Houses often have particular features that symbolise the house, and saving that from the old house could make the new house be the 'same' house, as it were. Depending on culture, those features might be a cornerpost, a door lintel or post, or threshold stone, or the beam at the crest of the house, or a carving attached to the summit, or a hearth stone, etc etc.

EDIT: sorry, but I feel obligated to pun: For some cultures, 'home is where the hearth is'.
I really like the idea of that, I'll definitely have to try to incorporate that, thanks Salmoneus! [:D]
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Salmoneus wrote:... a realistic compromise might be building a new house, but incorporating an element of the old. Houses often have particular features that symbolise the house, and saving that from the old house could make the new house be the 'same' house, as it were. Depending on culture, those features might be a cornerpost, a door lintel or post, or threshold stone, or the beam at the crest of the house, or a carving attached to the summit, or a hearth stone, etc etc.
[+1]

Salmoneus wrote:... 'home is where the hearth is'.
Well-said!

Edit:
Salmoneus wrote:EDIT: sorry, but I feel obligated to pun: For some cultures, 'home is where the hearth is'.
Why would anyone ever feel the need to apologize for a pun? I certainly never feel apologetic about any of mine. Even if you felt you needed to, Sal, IMO you didn't in fact need to apologize.
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Post by ZedSed »

Hey guys. I was thinking it might be useful to open a thread for questions about alternate/alien biochemistry. I have a fairly decent grasp on the subject. I don't have a PhD in organic chemistry, but I know a fair amount about it as a serious amateur.

The reason for the thread would be if someone wants to ask something like...

"I want to create a species that swim in an ocean of molten rock. Is this feasible?"

... we could discuss the options for making it feasible (or atleast remotely feasible).

Another thing that might be cool would be some articles on the general biochem principles of life and how it works.
For instance, questions like "What makes water/carbon/oxygen/CO² the building blocks of life on Earth?" or "Biochemistry principles of life without Earth-based chauvinism."

Whaddaya think?
bp dt ʣʦ ʤʧ ɖʈ ʥʨ ɟc gk ɢq ʡ ʔ
m ɱ n ɳ ɲ ŋ ɴ
βɸ vf ðθ zs ʒʃ ʐʂ ʑɕ ʝç ɣx ʁχ ʕħ ʢʜ ɦh
ʋ ɹ ɻ j ɰ ʙ r ʀ ѵ ɾ ɽ ɮɬ l ɭ ʎ ʟ ɺ
ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ ɓ ɗ ʄ ɠ ʛ ʍ ɥ ɧ
i y ɨ ʉ ɯ u ɪ ʏ ʊ e ø ɘ ɵ ɤ o ə ɛ œ ɜ ɞ ʌ ɔ æ ɐ a ɶ ɑ ɒ

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

ZedSed wrote:The reason for the thread would be if someone wants to ask something like...
"I want to create a species that swim in an ocean of molten rock. Is this feasible?"
That was my question, once upon a time...

Yes, A thread for biochemical possibilities would be nice...
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ZedSed »

Ahzoh wrote:
ZedSed wrote:The reason for the thread would be if someone wants to ask something like...
"I want to create a species that swim in an ocean of molten rock. Is this feasible?"
That was my question, once upon a time...

Yes, A thread for biochemical possibilities would be nice...
Great! I'll get it up and rolling, then....

@Ahzoh, what was your original question?
bp dt ʣʦ ʤʧ ɖʈ ʥʨ ɟc gk ɢq ʡ ʔ
m ɱ n ɳ ɲ ŋ ɴ
βɸ vf ðθ zs ʒʃ ʐʂ ʑɕ ʝç ɣx ʁχ ʕħ ʢʜ ɦh
ʋ ɹ ɻ j ɰ ʙ r ʀ ѵ ɾ ɽ ɮɬ l ɭ ʎ ʟ ɺ
ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ ɓ ɗ ʄ ɠ ʛ ʍ ɥ ɧ
i y ɨ ʉ ɯ u ɪ ʏ ʊ e ø ɘ ɵ ɤ o ə ɛ œ ɜ ɞ ʌ ɔ æ ɐ a ɶ ɑ ɒ

How do you transcribe a big wet smoochy-woochy?
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