Your Conculture's Music
Re: Your Conculture's Music
I guess I should contribute as well.
The Kaynur and Hezek are rather different in most forms of music. Neither group uses instruments as of the now; voice and subsequently acapella groups are the only way they made music. Tapping, pronouncing [|], stomping, scratching stone, and clapping are used to keep the beat.
The differences between Hezek and Kaynur music genres is that Hezek songs are usually about depressing subjects and are heterophonic, resembling Arabian prayer calls, Hungarian folk music, and generic lamenting, as well as being reminiscient of a joik. Joiks are sometimes sung. On the other hand, Kaynur music is all about joiks; these joiks may be composed of improvised sounds, lyrics, or improvised rhyming lyrics and are pentatonic. Love, summer, rivers, reindeer, and suicide are common subjects.
A traditional Kaynur song is the cakkuru, or the throwing-song. It has a lively, up-beat, generic tune. It is a song often sung in groups at joyous celebrations. Each participant gets their turn to put in some improvised rhyming lyrics for a couplet of eight beats per line. Usually, the lyrics are praising newlyweds and wishing them a wonderful life when sung at marriage ceremonies, or something else that is joyful. It's a very flexible song.
After each couplet, if the couplet is a successful improvisation that sounds nice, the other participants cheer and joik their appreciation. Usually there is no order to the singers. If there is a failed couplet, the singer is jokingly booed.
Recently, a Kaynur individual, when carving out a shrine and engraving a picture of Tuntarimur, the Tundra God, found out that if she pluck a firm strip of wood a wooden bell-like sound will be produced, making this new proto-instrument work similar to a kalimba.
The Kaynur and Hezek are rather different in most forms of music. Neither group uses instruments as of the now; voice and subsequently acapella groups are the only way they made music. Tapping, pronouncing [|], stomping, scratching stone, and clapping are used to keep the beat.
The differences between Hezek and Kaynur music genres is that Hezek songs are usually about depressing subjects and are heterophonic, resembling Arabian prayer calls, Hungarian folk music, and generic lamenting, as well as being reminiscient of a joik. Joiks are sometimes sung. On the other hand, Kaynur music is all about joiks; these joiks may be composed of improvised sounds, lyrics, or improvised rhyming lyrics and are pentatonic. Love, summer, rivers, reindeer, and suicide are common subjects.
A traditional Kaynur song is the cakkuru, or the throwing-song. It has a lively, up-beat, generic tune. It is a song often sung in groups at joyous celebrations. Each participant gets their turn to put in some improvised rhyming lyrics for a couplet of eight beats per line. Usually, the lyrics are praising newlyweds and wishing them a wonderful life when sung at marriage ceremonies, or something else that is joyful. It's a very flexible song.
After each couplet, if the couplet is a successful improvisation that sounds nice, the other participants cheer and joik their appreciation. Usually there is no order to the singers. If there is a failed couplet, the singer is jokingly booed.
Recently, a Kaynur individual, when carving out a shrine and engraving a picture of Tuntarimur, the Tundra God, found out that if she pluck a firm strip of wood a wooden bell-like sound will be produced, making this new proto-instrument work similar to a kalimba.
Re: Your Conculture's Music
@MrKrov: I never thought it would be possible to have all logic fly out the window. I can't say a word without you changing it completely. The worst of it is that I am giving you the satasfaction of almost loosing sight of what humanity is. All I feel towards you is tolerance. A numb non emotional acceptance that you are.
If you understand what I have said that should stike but I doubt you will. Your sarcasm is a shield. What are you hiding? What is it you fear? Why are you? And tell me, who are you and what are you doing.
This is a place of sancuary and though yes we can just leave who wins? You don't. What happens when you are here talking to yourself? I am considered an outsider and I too agree that I am.
Now on con music my people have bagpipes. Barf all you want they are simply magical. Flutes are also common.
If you understand what I have said that should stike but I doubt you will. Your sarcasm is a shield. What are you hiding? What is it you fear? Why are you? And tell me, who are you and what are you doing.
This is a place of sancuary and though yes we can just leave who wins? You don't. What happens when you are here talking to yourself? I am considered an outsider and I too agree that I am.
Now on con music my people have bagpipes. Barf all you want they are simply magical. Flutes are also common.
Got tired of my old one.
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
so, those bagpipes -
what kind of scales do they use?
do they have multiple drones or just one?
is the drone out of tune wrt the scale?
is there even drone, or are they more like uilleann pipes?
what kind of scales do they use?
do they have multiple drones or just one?
is the drone out of tune wrt the scale?
is there even drone, or are they more like uilleann pipes?
Re: Your Conculture's Music
Hey! Because I'm a passionate drummer, I'm really into this topic. Of course, my conmusic is focused on rhythm.
The music I will describe now it the traditional folk music of the people of Saza, my conworld. The music is strongly intervowen with magic. Making this music may summon spirits or deamons who may provide supernatural wonders (or destruction).
The basic instruments used to make this music are the heart, dôdhuke /ˈdɔ.ðɐ̝kə/, and the time drum, bipêtun edzôsa ha /bə̝.ˈpɛ.tɐ̝n əd.ˈzɔ.sɜ hɜ/. Basically the huge dôdhuke gives a steady bass beat as a foundation for the bipêtun edzôsa ha to play upon. In this way, the basic instrumental structure is similar to the Taiko drumming tradition in Japan. The dôdhuke is quite similar to huge Taiko drums, but the bipêtun edzôsa ha is not. It is in fact not even a proper drum, because it consists of a wood body and has no drum head attached to it. It is more like a wood block. It provides a high pitched and cutting tone. Both drums are beaten with wood sticks of different diameters but equal lengths. Thick ones are used for the large dôdhuke and thinner ones are used to beat the bipêtun edzôsa ha.
Rhythmically, the music is oriented vaguely towards traditional African music, as it does not follow a fixed bar rhythm (like 4/4 or 7/8). Instead it follows patterns of varying length.
Dependent on the region, the location and the purpose other instruments can be added to these two core instruments. Voices, flutes and other drums of differing diameters are common.
I will try to provide a sample of some ideas I have in my head using my bassdrum as the dôdhuke and the rim of my snare drum (actually I have a wood block somewhere...) as the bipêtun edzôsa ha when I find the time :(
The music I will describe now it the traditional folk music of the people of Saza, my conworld. The music is strongly intervowen with magic. Making this music may summon spirits or deamons who may provide supernatural wonders (or destruction).
The basic instruments used to make this music are the heart, dôdhuke /ˈdɔ.ðɐ̝kə/, and the time drum, bipêtun edzôsa ha /bə̝.ˈpɛ.tɐ̝n əd.ˈzɔ.sɜ hɜ/. Basically the huge dôdhuke gives a steady bass beat as a foundation for the bipêtun edzôsa ha to play upon. In this way, the basic instrumental structure is similar to the Taiko drumming tradition in Japan. The dôdhuke is quite similar to huge Taiko drums, but the bipêtun edzôsa ha is not. It is in fact not even a proper drum, because it consists of a wood body and has no drum head attached to it. It is more like a wood block. It provides a high pitched and cutting tone. Both drums are beaten with wood sticks of different diameters but equal lengths. Thick ones are used for the large dôdhuke and thinner ones are used to beat the bipêtun edzôsa ha.
Rhythmically, the music is oriented vaguely towards traditional African music, as it does not follow a fixed bar rhythm (like 4/4 or 7/8). Instead it follows patterns of varying length.
Dependent on the region, the location and the purpose other instruments can be added to these two core instruments. Voices, flutes and other drums of differing diameters are common.
I will try to provide a sample of some ideas I have in my head using my bassdrum as the dôdhuke and the rim of my snare drum (actually I have a wood block somewhere...) as the bipêtun edzôsa ha when I find the time :(
Re: Your Conculture's Music
I love bagpipes! I can see why people don't like them, but personally the drone makes me think of Celtic things.Ashroot wrote:Now on con music my people have bagpipes. Barf all you want they are simply magical. Flutes are also common.
Yes, this would be nice to know.Systemzwang wrote:so, those bagpipes -
what kind of scales do they use?
do they have multiple drones or just one?
is the drone out of tune wrt the scale?
is there even drone, or are they more like uilleann pipes?
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
the main reason people dislike them is probably that the drone (as well as the scale, to some extent?) are out of tune compared both to just-intonation and 12-tet temperament; if you have some kind of loop-effect for a guitar, try looping a slightly detuned open E-string, while playing an in-tune pentatonic or minor harmonic E scale, and you get something that sounds very bagpipeoid.Pirka wrote:I love bagpipes! I can see why people don't like them, but personally the drone makes me think of Celtic things.Ashroot wrote:Now on con music my people have bagpipes. Barf all you want they are simply magical. Flutes are also common.
The timbre of the bagpipes might not help much either, but I figure that timbre wouldn't be half as bad if it were in tune. It's rather shrill, which in and of itself is somewhat off-putting (but not all bagpipes are that shrill, e.g. uilleann bagpipes seem somewhat less shrill, as do mainland European ones, like Polish and Balkans bagpipes, as well as Scandinavian ones, altho' I've heard some even worse out of tune and shriller Yugoslavian ones as well - but shrillness isn't a universal for bagpipes, continentwide.)
(do notice that bagpipes aren't something of exclusively scottish origins.)
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
Since I'm going to a music school next year, I can't say I haven't thought about this.
I've had an idea inspired by the early Greek notation of music, i.e. using the alphabet.
The alphabet would of course be my conscript, and each character would represent a note or phrase relative to the scale ('such-and-such means subdominant-dominant-tonic')
There would have to be some way of embellishing the characters to give more variety, and I'm not sure how I would denote rhythms. Maybe just by the proximity of the 'notes' to each other like I think Gregorian chant does.
Then there could be in addition 'lower class' music for uneducated musicians, much freer but not able to be written down with any sophistication.
I'm not sure what scales they would use, but I like me my dorian and mixolydian.
Their instruments would probably be medievaly-type, viols and woodwinds, maybe some long-lost cousin of the lute :-)
I would love to develop this.
I've had an idea inspired by the early Greek notation of music, i.e. using the alphabet.
The alphabet would of course be my conscript, and each character would represent a note or phrase relative to the scale ('such-and-such means subdominant-dominant-tonic')
There would have to be some way of embellishing the characters to give more variety, and I'm not sure how I would denote rhythms. Maybe just by the proximity of the 'notes' to each other like I think Gregorian chant does.
Then there could be in addition 'lower class' music for uneducated musicians, much freer but not able to be written down with any sophistication.
I'm not sure what scales they would use, but I like me my dorian and mixolydian.
Their instruments would probably be medievaly-type, viols and woodwinds, maybe some long-lost cousin of the lute :-)
I would love to develop this.
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
Have you considered not having the idea of dominants and subdominants at all? Those are quite unusual in most musical traditions of the world!Lhûd wrote:Since I'm going to a music school next year, I can't say I haven't thought about this.
I've had an idea inspired by the early Greek notation of music, i.e. using the alphabet.
The alphabet would of course be my conscript, and each character would represent a note or phrase relative to the scale ('such-and-such means subdominant-dominant-tonic')
There would have to be some way of embellishing the characters to give more variety, and I'm not sure how I would denote rhythms. Maybe just by the proximity of the 'notes' to each other like I think Gregorian chant does.
Then there could be in addition 'lower class' music for uneducated musicians, much freer but not able to be written down with any sophistication.
I'm not sure what scales they would use, but I like me my dorian and mixolydian.
Their instruments would probably be medievaly-type, viols and woodwinds, maybe some long-lost cousin of the lute :-)
I would love to develop this.
Re: Your Conculture's Music
Systemzwang wrote:Have you considered not having the idea of dominants and subdominants at all? Those are quite unusual in most musical traditions of the world!
By those terms I didn't mean to imply that my elves would see them the same way as westerners, simply that a certain character could mean 'fourth scale tone-fifth scale tone-first scale tone'
But since the notes themselves would be named with numbers according to the instrument (If a viol goes down to a G, then that note would be called '1', maybe the G an octave above would be 'second 1') I thought I'd have a different, non-numerical system for scale tones once a key is established.
But then again, I haven't given more than a few minutes' thought to any of this
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
(This would be a poll if I knew how to make a poll; and so it would have to be its own thread.)
(Who knows, maybe if we get enough answers, some mod will split this out to its own thread?)
Musical Perception Among Your Con-People: a Questionnaire
may be too grandiose a title, since I'm not going to talk about rhythm or timbre or dynamics (volume or speed).
Anyway:
Among real-life humans here on Datum Earth and now in our time-line, few of us have "perfect pitch", but most of us have near-perfect intervalic perception.
If we here a middle C and are later-enough asked to identify it from among a set of not-very-different other notes, we probably won't have a much better-than-chance success rate.
But, if we here a perfect fifth, and are later asked to identify it from among a set of other intervals (for instance, perfect fourths and minor sixths), most of us can do so most of the time.
[hr][/hr]
Alright, so, first let me get out of the way some things I'll otherwise just assume are true of your conpeople.
Can they tell a melodic interval (the two notes played one after another) from a harmonic interval (both notes played at once)?
Can they tell an ascending melodic interval (second note higher than first) from a descending melodic interval (second note lower than first)?
Can they identify a unison (both notes are same pitch)?
Can they tell when an interval is not a unison?
Can they identify an octave (one pitch is double the frequency of the other)?
Can they tell when an interval is less than an octave? Can they tell when an interval is more than an octave?
More technical stuff:
Intervals are usually measured in "cents". A "cent" is a 1200th of an octave; two pitches are one cent apart if the higher one's frequency is 2^(1/1200) times the lower one's frequency.
For most of us real-life humans, a "just-noticeable difference" is around 3 or 4 cents.
A "perfect twelfth" is the interval in which one pitch's frequency is three times the other's; a twelfth is about 1902 cents.
Most people have little trouble comparing intervals as long as no two of the up-to-four notes involved are more than four octaves apart from each other. If they are further apart, most people can still tell a lot about the different intervals, but for many their precision suffers somewhat.
Now, on to the questions.
I have two more batches to go, but I'm going to put them in spoilers in case you think I've gone far enough already.
Finally, which of the above intervals do your conpeople find harmonious, and which do they find discordant?
The answer may vary from continent to continent or country to country, as well as from century to century or even decade to decade.
Once upon a time in real-life Western Europe even the 4:3 interval (a perfect fourth) was considered discordant.
Then in the times of the first four Edwards (Edward I to Edward IV of England) not only the 4:3 interval, but also the 5:4 and 8:5 intervals and the 5:3 and 6:5 intervals, were considered harmonious.
(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony#Historical_rules which says:
So, I assume they find octaves (2:1) and twelfths (3:1) and fifths (3:2) harmonious?
So probably also fourths (4:3) and elevenths (8:3)?
How about each of the following:
But what about
Traditionally, if an interval was harmonious, then it's "inversion" -- the interval obtained by raising the lower note an octave -- would also be harmonious.
So,
But what about
Ratios involving 9 do show up, however. But they're not (traditionally) considered harmonious, but, rather, they are (traditionally) considered discordances.
What about your conpeople?
Do they like 9:5 and/or 10:9?
9:6 is the same as 3:2 and 12:9 is the same as 4:3, so I won't ask about them.
Do they like 9:8 and/or 16:9?
(Who knows, maybe if we get enough answers, some mod will split this out to its own thread?)
Musical Perception Among Your Con-People: a Questionnaire
may be too grandiose a title, since I'm not going to talk about rhythm or timbre or dynamics (volume or speed).
Anyway:
Among real-life humans here on Datum Earth and now in our time-line, few of us have "perfect pitch", but most of us have near-perfect intervalic perception.
If we here a middle C and are later-enough asked to identify it from among a set of not-very-different other notes, we probably won't have a much better-than-chance success rate.
But, if we here a perfect fifth, and are later asked to identify it from among a set of other intervals (for instance, perfect fourths and minor sixths), most of us can do so most of the time.
Alright, so, first let me get out of the way some things I'll otherwise just assume are true of your conpeople.
Can they tell a melodic interval (the two notes played one after another) from a harmonic interval (both notes played at once)?
Can they tell an ascending melodic interval (second note higher than first) from a descending melodic interval (second note lower than first)?
Can they identify a unison (both notes are same pitch)?
Can they tell when an interval is not a unison?
Can they identify an octave (one pitch is double the frequency of the other)?
Can they tell when an interval is less than an octave? Can they tell when an interval is more than an octave?
More technical stuff:
Intervals are usually measured in "cents". A "cent" is a 1200th of an octave; two pitches are one cent apart if the higher one's frequency is 2^(1/1200) times the lower one's frequency.
For most of us real-life humans, a "just-noticeable difference" is around 3 or 4 cents.
A "perfect twelfth" is the interval in which one pitch's frequency is three times the other's; a twelfth is about 1902 cents.
Most people have little trouble comparing intervals as long as no two of the up-to-four notes involved are more than four octaves apart from each other. If they are further apart, most people can still tell a lot about the different intervals, but for many their precision suffers somewhat.
Now, on to the questions.
- Batch the first:
- Can your people tell the difference between a perfect fifth (the frequencies are in the ratio 3:2, about 702 cents) and a unison?
- And between a perfect fifth and an octave?
- Batch the second:
- Can they tell the difference between a perfect fourth (the frequencies are in the ratio 4:3, about 498 cents) and a unison?
- And between a perfect fourth and a perfect fifth?
- Can they tell the difference between a major sixth (the frequencies' ratio is 5:3, about 884 cents) and a perfect fifth?
- and between a major sixth and an octave?
- Batch the third:
- Can they tell the difference between a major third (the frequencies are in the ratio 5:4, about 386 cents) and a unison?
- And between a major third and a perfect fourth?
- Can they tell the difference between the interval in which the frequencies' ratio is 7:5, (about 583 cents) and a perfect fourth?
- and between the 7:5 interval and a perfect fifth?
- Can they tell the difference between a minor sixth (the frequencies' ratio is 8:5, about 814 cents) and a perfect fifth?
- and between a minor sixth and a major sixth?
- Can they tell the difference between the interval whose frequencies' ratio is 7:4, (about 969 cents) and a major sixth?
- and between that 7:4 interval and an octave?
- Batch the fourth:
- Can they tell the difference between a minor third (the frequencies are in the ratio 6:5, about 316 cents) and a unison?
- And between a minor third and a major third?
- Can they tell the difference between the interval whose frequencies' ratio is 9:7, (about 435 cents) and a major third?
- and between that 9:7 interval and a perfect fourth?
- Can they tell the difference between the interval whose frequencies' ratio is 11:8, (about 551 cents) and a perfect fourth?
- and between that 11:8 interval and a 7:5 interval?
- Can they tell the difference between the interval whose frequencies' ratio is 10:7, (about 617 cents) and a 7:5 interval? (Both intervals are equally close to half-an-octave (600 cents), which in even temperament is called an augmented fourth or a diminished fifth.)
- and between that 10:7 interval and a perfect fifth?
- Can they tell the difference between the interval whose frequencies' ratio is 11:7, (about 782 cents) and a perfect fifth?
- and between that 11:7 interval and a minor sixth?
- Can they tell the difference between the interval whose frequencies' ratio is 13:8, (about 841 cents) and a minor sixth?
- and between that 13:8 interval and a major sixth?
- Can they tell the difference between the interval whose frequencies' ratio is 12:7, (about 933 cents) and a major sixth?
- and between that 12:7 interval and a 7:4 interval? (Both intervals are equally close to half-a-twelfth, which in even temperament is, unless I am mistaken, is somewhere between a major sixth plus a quarter-tone, or a minor seventh less a quarter-tone; "a half-augmented sixth" or a "half-diminished seventh"..)
- Can they tell the difference between (one approximation of) a(n even-tempered) minor seventh* (the frequencies' ratio is 9:5, about 1018 cents) and a 7:4 interval?
- and between a (9:5 "English") minor seventh* and an octave?
I have two more batches to go, but I'm going to put them in spoilers in case you think I've gone far enough already.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Finally, which of the above intervals do your conpeople find harmonious, and which do they find discordant?
The answer may vary from continent to continent or country to country, as well as from century to century or even decade to decade.
Once upon a time in real-life Western Europe even the 4:3 interval (a perfect fourth) was considered discordant.
Then in the times of the first four Edwards (Edward I to Edward IV of England) not only the 4:3 interval, but also the 5:4 and 8:5 intervals and the 5:3 and 6:5 intervals, were considered harmonious.
(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony#Historical_rules which says:
)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony#Historical_rules wrote:Early Western religious music often features parallel perfect intervals; these intervals would preserve the clarity of the original plainsong. These works were created and performed in cathedrals, and made use of the resonant modes of their respective cathedrals to create harmonies. As polyphony developed, however, the use of parallel intervals was slowly replaced by the English style of consonance that used thirds and sixths. The English style was considered to have a sweeter sound, and was better suited to polyphony in that it offered greater linear flexibility in part-writing. Early music also forbade usage of the tritone, as its dissonance was associated with the devil, and composers often went to considerable lengths, via musica ficta, to avoid using it. In the newer triadic harmonic system, however, the tritone became permissible, as the standardization of functional dissonance made its use in dominant chords desirable.
So, I assume they find octaves (2:1) and twelfths (3:1) and fifths (3:2) harmonious?
So probably also fourths (4:3) and elevenths (8:3)?
How about each of the following:
- 2:1?
- 3:1?
- 3:2?
- 4:1?
- 4:2?
- 4:3?
- 5:1?
- 5:2?
- 5:3?
- 5:4?
- 6:1?
- 6:2?
- 6:3?
- 6:4?
- 6:5?
But what about
- 7:1?
- 7:2?
- 7:3?
- 7:4?
- 7:5?
- 7:6?
Traditionally, if an interval was harmonious, then it's "inversion" -- the interval obtained by raising the lower note an octave -- would also be harmonious.
So,
- If 3:2 is harmonious, then so is 4:3, and vice-versa;
- If 5:3 is harmonious, then so is 6:5, and vice-versa;
- If 5:4 is harmonious, then so is 8:5, and vice-versa;
- If 7:4 is harmonious, then so is 8:7, and vice-versa;
- If 7:5 is harmonious, then so is 10:7, and vice-versa;
- If 7:6 is harmonious, then so is 12:7, and vice-versa.
But what about
- 9:5 and 10:9?
- 9:7 and 14:9?
- 9:8 and 16:9?
- 11:6 and 12:11?
- 11:7 and 14:11?
- 11:8 and 16:11?
- 11:9 and 18:11?
- 11:10 and 20:11?
Ratios involving 9 do show up, however. But they're not (traditionally) considered harmonious, but, rather, they are (traditionally) considered discordances.
What about your conpeople?
Do they like 9:5 and/or 10:9?
9:6 is the same as 3:2 and 12:9 is the same as 4:3, so I won't ask about them.
Do they like 9:8 and/or 16:9?
Spoiler:
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Your Conculture's Music
I hope it's okay to post link to Youtube videos (not my own). If it's not, please let me know and I'll remove them.
Anyway: Aroian music (Aroida is the most-populated Seragradic-speaking nation, with 6 planets) hasn't changed that much over the years. It's heavily influenced by Turkic music. Pop, rock and hip hop/rap are very common. Aroidan music sounds a bit like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtUbLcQVvU (Tatar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbq-ja9-Eh8 (Tatar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRplMPOuwtM (Tatar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tGmoLuUVEk (Bulgarian, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BzkbSq7pww (Spanish)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6CC0CmsocU (Russian)
Unfortunately I'm not a very good singer, so I can't really record any Seragradic music.
Anyway: Aroian music (Aroida is the most-populated Seragradic-speaking nation, with 6 planets) hasn't changed that much over the years. It's heavily influenced by Turkic music. Pop, rock and hip hop/rap are very common. Aroidan music sounds a bit like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtUbLcQVvU (Tatar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbq-ja9-Eh8 (Tatar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRplMPOuwtM (Tatar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tGmoLuUVEk (Bulgarian, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BzkbSq7pww (Spanish)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6CC0CmsocU (Russian)
Unfortunately I'm not a very good singer, so I can't really record any Seragradic music.
Fluent: Average: Basic: :srp: Terrible:
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
Although this isn't meant to relate to any conculture, this is in a weird tuning:
https://soundcloud.com/markus-miekk-oja/party-solitude
The tuning's 11-tone equal temperament, and the scale within that is LsLLLL - a six-tone scale that starts out with a (super)major second (close to 8/7), a (super)minor second, and then a series of (super)major seconds.
So, it's a bastard child between a minor scale and a wholetone scale, a scale where C DEb F G# A# C consists only of major and minor seconds.
11-tone equal temperament approximates:
16/15 (minor second)
8/7 (its major second)
6/5 or 17/15 (the minor third)
9/7 (two major seconds - its major third, c.f. the slightly sharp approximation of 5/4 in most western music)
11/8 (11th overtone, two major seconds + a semitone)
And of course the inverse of each of these times two (so e.g. 11/8 => 2* 8/11)
https://soundcloud.com/markus-miekk-oja/party-solitude
The tuning's 11-tone equal temperament, and the scale within that is LsLLLL - a six-tone scale that starts out with a (super)major second (close to 8/7), a (super)minor second, and then a series of (super)major seconds.
So, it's a bastard child between a minor scale and a wholetone scale, a scale where C DEb F G# A# C consists only of major and minor seconds.
11-tone equal temperament approximates:
16/15 (minor second)
8/7 (its major second)
6/5 or 17/15 (the minor third)
9/7 (two major seconds - its major third, c.f. the slightly sharp approximation of 5/4 in most western music)
11/8 (11th overtone, two major seconds + a semitone)
And of course the inverse of each of these times two (so e.g. 11/8 => 2* 8/11)
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
eldin raigmore,
there is one pretty famous exception to the idea that inversions of consonant intervals are also consonant - in renaissance and to some extent early baroque polyphony, the perfect fourth is a dissonance except under certain specific situations (i.e. it's not dissonant when it's the upper interval in a triplet consisting of a root, the root's fifth and the root's octave). There's also some reason to suspect that really small intervals - seconds, especially - indeed are harsher dissonances than their inversions.
Finally, I give you a work that lacks octaves, but uses the 'tritave' instead (3:1 instead of 2:1, so basically the fifth of the regular octave). The main chord structures approximate 3:5:7, 5:7:9 and 7/7:7/5:7/3 and 9/9:9/7:9/5 (c.f. the major and minor chords 4:5:6 and 6/6:6/5:6/4).
there is one pretty famous exception to the idea that inversions of consonant intervals are also consonant - in renaissance and to some extent early baroque polyphony, the perfect fourth is a dissonance except under certain specific situations (i.e. it's not dissonant when it's the upper interval in a triplet consisting of a root, the root's fifth and the root's octave). There's also some reason to suspect that really small intervals - seconds, especially - indeed are harsher dissonances than their inversions.
Finally, I give you a work that lacks octaves, but uses the 'tritave' instead (3:1 instead of 2:1, so basically the fifth of the regular octave). The main chord structures approximate 3:5:7, 5:7:9 and 7/7:7/5:7/3 and 9/9:9/7:9/5 (c.f. the major and minor chords 4:5:6 and 6/6:6/5:6/4).
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- sinic
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
There are various different sorts of music in my world, most of which I haven't done much work on. One very popular style in the Viksor is the wunyibu, which consists of a tuned drums together with a lute-like stringed instrument and another instrument a bit like a recorder, and sometimes sung vocals as well. Wunyibu music is typically composed on a pentatonic scale.
The Man in the Blackened House, a conworld-based serialised web-novel
Re: Your Conculture's Music
Lyrics are not important, because they enjoy music because of the rhythm and the melody.
70% of the songs do not have voices.
20% have voice but do not have lyrics. They are sung as "/pa pa pa/", "/nã nã nã/" or "/la la la/". The voice is used as an instrument.
10% have lyrics. Lyrics are rare because they have to be deeply meaningful.
Lyrics are only used when there is a reason. Lyrics alone must have some value without the music. The concept of rhyme does not exist. Lyrics are used to tell a message, a joke, a tale or a legend. They are also used for prayers and rituals.
The military songs and lyrics are different. They are not nationalist, they are jokes sung when the soldiers are training.
There are many instruments and styles, but I will choose the instruments later. I have to listen to many instruments to choose them.
In modern times, they will invent an instrument to play chiptune sounds (such as monochromatic cellphone, game boy).
70% of the songs do not have voices.
20% have voice but do not have lyrics. They are sung as "/pa pa pa/", "/nã nã nã/" or "/la la la/". The voice is used as an instrument.
10% have lyrics. Lyrics are rare because they have to be deeply meaningful.
Lyrics are only used when there is a reason. Lyrics alone must have some value without the music. The concept of rhyme does not exist. Lyrics are used to tell a message, a joke, a tale or a legend. They are also used for prayers and rituals.
The military songs and lyrics are different. They are not nationalist, they are jokes sung when the soldiers are training.
There are many instruments and styles, but I will choose the instruments later. I have to listen to many instruments to choose them.
In modern times, they will invent an instrument to play chiptune sounds (such as monochromatic cellphone, game boy).
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
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- eldin raigmore
- korean
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
I knew that; I thought I mentioned that.*Systemzwang wrote:eldin raigmore,
there is one pretty famous exception to the idea that inversions of consonant intervals are also consonant - in renaissance and to some extent early baroque polyphony, the perfect fourth is a dissonance except under certain specific situations (i.e. it's not dissonant when it's the upper interval in a triplet consisting of a root, the root's fifth and the root's octave).
I "assumed" it as a way to shorten the questionnaire. (Some people think some of my posts are rather long -- don't know why. )
Anyone whose conculture doesn't make that assumption, feel free to say so.
Anyway, thanks.
Edit: *Oh, yeah, here it is:
eldin raigmore wrote:Finally, which of the above intervals do your conpeople find harmonious, and which do they find discordant?
The answer may vary from continent to continent or country to country, as well as from century to century or even decade to decade.
Once upon a time in real-life Western Europe even the 4:3 interval (a perfect fourth) was considered discordant.
Then in the times of the first four Edwards (Edward I to Edward IV of England) not only the 4:3 interval, but also the 5:4 and 8:5 intervals and the 5:3 and 6:5 intervals, were considered harmonious.
Yeah, 16:9 sounds less dissonant than 9:8.There's also some reason to suspect that really small intervals - seconds, especially - indeed are harsher dissonances than their inversions.
I knew about that too, though I'm pretty sure I didn't mention it. Thanks again.Systemzwang wrote:Finally, I give you a work that lacks octaves, but uses the 'tritave' instead (3:1 instead of 2:1, so basically the fifth of the regular octave). The main chord structures approximate 3:5:7, 5:7:9 and 7/7:7/5:7/3 and 9/9:9/7:9/5 (c.f. the major and minor chords 4:5:6 and 6/6:6/5:6/4).
A "tritave" is a twelfth; it's about 1902 cents, which isn't noticeably different from 1900 cents. You (meaning anyone who reads this; I'm sure Systemzwang already knows) can look it up in Wikipedia, which includes everything I know about it that I'm saying here.
That type of temperament is based on intervals like 3:1, 5:3, 7:3, 7:5, 9:5, and 9:7 -- essentially, ratios between odd natural numbers less than or equal to 9.
The "normal" tuning is based on ratios between natural numbers less than or equal to 6 -- 2:1, 3:2, 4:3, 5:3, 5:4, 6:5.
Edit: Intervals whose frequencies' ratios are the ratios of smaller natural numbers tend to sound more consonant -- more harmonic -- than those whose frequencies' ratios have to be expressed by larger numbers -- up until the point where the ear starts having trouble telling the difference, anyway. If the frequencies' ratio is an irrational number like squrt(2) or squrt(3) or 2^(⅓) or 2^(⅔) or 3^(⅓) or 3^(⅔) etc., it will sound dissonant -- again, up to the point that the ear can't tell it apart from some more consonant (harmonious-sounding) interval.
That's why 2:1 sounds "almost identical" ("the same note only higher"), and why parallel fifths (3:2) and parallel fourths (4:3) sound boring.
But thirds (5:4 and 6:5) and sixths (5:3) sound harmonious.
One might expect 7:4 and 7:5 and 7:6 to sound more harmonious than 8:5, if one followed that line of reasoning. The trouble is just that in a twelve-semitone-per-octave even-temperament it's hard to approximate those intervals (that is, 7:4 and 7:5 and 7:6). For all I know they do sound better than 8:5 (a minor sixth; it's the inversion of 5:4).
9:8 is just about a major second, and 16:9 is a minor seventh, and in modern music they often are treated as harmonious, although old fogies like me can still remember when they weren't.
In choir and bell-choir and so on I can handle one of those per chord as long as they aren't in consecutive chords, and it sounds perfectly fine to me.
But a four-tone chord consisting of three major seconds stacked one atop another -- e.g. F G A B -- just sounds (to me) like the composer wasn't even trying; and a measure consisting of three such chords, especially if every third measure is like that, doesn't sound like music.
"That's not music: that's just noise!" (I couldn't believe I actually said that the first time I did so.)
That's why 2:1 sounds "almost identical" ("the same note only higher"), and why parallel fifths (3:2) and parallel fourths (4:3) sound boring.
But thirds (5:4 and 6:5) and sixths (5:3) sound harmonious.
One might expect 7:4 and 7:5 and 7:6 to sound more harmonious than 8:5, if one followed that line of reasoning. The trouble is just that in a twelve-semitone-per-octave even-temperament it's hard to approximate those intervals (that is, 7:4 and 7:5 and 7:6). For all I know they do sound better than 8:5 (a minor sixth; it's the inversion of 5:4).
9:8 is just about a major second, and 16:9 is a minor seventh, and in modern music they often are treated as harmonious, although old fogies like me can still remember when they weren't.
In choir and bell-choir and so on I can handle one of those per chord as long as they aren't in consecutive chords, and it sounds perfectly fine to me.
But a four-tone chord consisting of three major seconds stacked one atop another -- e.g. F G A B -- just sounds (to me) like the composer wasn't even trying; and a measure consisting of three such chords, especially if every third measure is like that, doesn't sound like music.
"That's not music: that's just noise!" (I couldn't believe I actually said that the first time I did so.)
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Oh! And by the way!
Thanks very much for your posts, Segano, Curlyjimsam, and Squall; (and thanks for your other post(s), Systemzwang).
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Your Conculture's Music
In my conworld one of the cultures is linked mainly to music in time signatures like 5/4, 10/8, 5/8 - basically, in basic count of 5, rather than 4 or 3 which are more natural to us. I think it's quite unique concept, 'cause I've never read about messing with the rhythm more than with harmony or instruments. If you don't know what it's about, some examples of music in the 5/4 or 5/8 signatures.
Dave Bruebeck - Take Five
Riverside - I Believe
It's hard to find examples in folk, traditional music, but maybe you can imagine
Dave Bruebeck - Take Five
Riverside - I Believe
It's hard to find examples in folk, traditional music, but maybe you can imagine
- eldin raigmore
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
Indian music has much more interesting and complicated rhythm than Western music; and much less complex and interesting harmony, according to some Indian musicians who compose in both traditions.Birdjimmy wrote:In my conworld one of the cultures is linked mainly to music in time signatures like 5/4, 10/8, 5/8 - basically, in basic count of 5, rather than 4 or 3 which are more natural to us. I think it's quite unique concept, 'cause I've never read about messing with the rhythm more than with harmony or instruments. If you don't know what it's about, some examples of music in the 5/4 or 5/8 signatures.
Dave Bruebeck - Take Five
Riverside - I Believe
It's hard to find examples in folk, traditional music, but maybe you can imagine
Lalo Schifrin's "Mission Impossible" is in the "Detroit beat" (named after the city in which Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" was first publicly danced to).
Gustav Holst's "Mars: Bringer of War", from his "The Planets" suite, is in 5-time.
Paul Yoder's "Barcelona" has its last part in 5-time and sounds very natural. (Yoder composed many schools' anthems.) You can find the first part of Barcelona being played on the Internet but that's not the part in 5-time.
Dave Brubeck's "Unsquare Dance" is in 7-time.
There was a classical piece of music, a blacksmith's song in which the percussionist hit an anvil with a hammer on every downbeat, that went seven beats per measure. (The melody had to be played on the half-beats.) My band played it in high school. I wish I could remember either the name or the composer.
(Check out Brubeck's "Blue Ronda a la Turk".)
K.L.King's march "Cyrus the Great" has a first strain 11 measures long. Preceded by the 10-measure intro, and then repeated, the intro plus the first strain add up to 10+11+11=32 measures; the sum is typical but the component lengths are unusual.
Genesis's "Abacab" is in 13-time, AIUI. It's kind of "folk", in the sense that the composer's musical literacy wasn't involved in its composition. He just played something that sounded neat to him that he could play again. When his bandmates got involved in trying to harmonize it and lyricize it and so on, then is when they realized it was in 13.
Radiohead has something in 15-time.
In traditional time-signatures, the "denominator" is always a power of two, and the "numerator" is a power of two or a power of three or some product of a power of two times a power of three.
Sometimes, though, you'll have a melody that is in a rhythm based on some number of beats divisible by a prime greater than three, harmonized with a counter-melody or descant in a rhythm based on some number of beats divisible by some different prime greater than three.
That's called "irrational". It's not really "irrational" in the mathematical meaning or "irrational"; rather, it's a ratio that, reduced to lowest terms, is between two numbers that are not only relatively prime to each other, but also at least one is odd and at least one is not divisible by 3 and neither is a power of two nor a power of three nor the product of a power of two times a power of three.
Like, maybe, the melody is in 5-time but the counter-melody is in 7-time.
Or 7:10. Or 7:11 or 10:11. Or 7:13, 10:13, or 11:13.
Or 11:14, 13:14, 11:15, 13:15. or 14:15.
But see also this search. Their idea of "irrational time signature" is different from what I said above.
And this.
(And maybe this.)
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
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- greek
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Re: Your Conculture's Music
Question for people who have tonal languages; do songs ignore or integrate tone?
Mandarin pop ignores it, but Cantonese uses it.
Mandarin pop ignores it, but Cantonese uses it.