why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Generally the best advice for producing good material (not necessarily for serenity...) is: "worry more... afterwards".
Most people worry not the wrong amount, but at the wrong point. They worry whether something they do will be good, which deters them from doing it. Then when they've done it, they're happy and carefree and cocky and confident because hey, they thought it would be hard and they did it.
But the best way to improve is to be confident and carefree before you do something (because otherwise you'll never do anything, or if you do you'll have one eye over your shoulder the whole time), and then worry about how good it was afterward (because if you don't, you'll be content, and so you'll never improve (except through luck) on your first attempt).
Of course, worrying about the last thing you did while approaching the next thing boldly and without concern is not an easy thing to pull off. It's part of the reason why almost everybody is terrible at almost everything (statistically speaking).
Most people worry not the wrong amount, but at the wrong point. They worry whether something they do will be good, which deters them from doing it. Then when they've done it, they're happy and carefree and cocky and confident because hey, they thought it would be hard and they did it.
But the best way to improve is to be confident and carefree before you do something (because otherwise you'll never do anything, or if you do you'll have one eye over your shoulder the whole time), and then worry about how good it was afterward (because if you don't, you'll be content, and so you'll never improve (except through luck) on your first attempt).
Of course, worrying about the last thing you did while approaching the next thing boldly and without concern is not an easy thing to pull off. It's part of the reason why almost everybody is terrible at almost everything (statistically speaking).
- DesEsseintes
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
I love this sentence, and I couldn’t agree more with this evaluation. It’s just that I would never have been able to articulate it as well.
- fruityloops
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
hey i know this is like a really contrived reason for why I'm the way i am but....i had a brain injury way back in freshmen year, and take away my ability to visualize things as clearly now a days. it impacted my writing by a lot and i have trouble describing actions. even back then i struggle but not by much. now, it's next to impossible to get writing project done just because of that, especially when it's prose. non-fiction or explaining my setting i much easier for me.
it's not the virtue of my setting lacking humans that alienates people, it's how i write that alienates them. again dumb excuse but if i ever get a single comic project done, my art is serviceable but the writing would be poop. like i can practice all i want but I'm skeptical if I'll ever make progress of doing anything that's not just explain stuff in droves.
it's not the virtue of my setting lacking humans that alienates people, it's how i write that alienates them. again dumb excuse but if i ever get a single comic project done, my art is serviceable but the writing would be poop. like i can practice all i want but I'm skeptical if I'll ever make progress of doing anything that's not just explain stuff in droves.
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
No, not a dumb excuse or a contrived reason by a long shot! Brain injuries can be horribly or weirdly debilitating. Or can leave no lasting effects at all.fruityloops wrote: ↑17 May 2018 17:30 hey i know this is like a really contrived reason for why I'm the way i am but....i had a brain injury way back in freshmen year, and take away my ability to visualize things as clearly now a days. it impacted my writing by a lot and i have trouble describing actions. even back then i struggle but not by much. now, it's next to impossible to get writing project done just because of that, especially when it's prose. non-fiction or explaining my setting i much easier for me.
it's not the virtue of my setting lacking humans that alienates people, it's how i write that alienates them. again dumb excuse but if i ever get a single comic project done, my art is serviceable but the writing would be poop. like i can practice all i want but I'm skeptical if I'll ever make progress of doing anything that's not just explain stuff in droves.
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Fortunately, unlike inventiveness, prose style is something that can be learned by anyone. All that's required is to read extensively, and to read good books. What were the last ten books you read this year?*
Concise visual description, admittedly, is another thing. I do think it's a specific talent, and one that most people don't have. [I'm mostly terrible at it. I have to force myself to include any visual descriptions, and when I do they're either overly metaphorical, or dully uninspired].
But, fortunately, good writing does not require good, concise visual description. [Indeed, modern styles tend to discourage too much description]. Many great writers largely eschew visual description, prefering either to hurry events along (maintaining broad clarity of space and action through peripheral remarks), or to convey emotional mood or intellectual theme through tangential remarks. How do your characters feel? What are they thinking of? What are YOU thinking of?
So, for example...
Writing is something that can be learned - if your brain allows you to engage in forums and write arms-length descriptions of your setting, it allows you to write narrative (though if you have a specific injury, like a problem with visual imagination, your style may need to find ways to circumvent that obstacle).
Of course, really good writing is something that usually takes several decades of study to master...
*a hypocritical question, as I haven't even read ten books this year. If I wrote like I read today, my prose would be really appalling (rather than just overblown, as it is). Fortunately, I read extensively as a boy, and I mostly try to read good books now, to make up for the low quantum.
Concise visual description, admittedly, is another thing. I do think it's a specific talent, and one that most people don't have. [I'm mostly terrible at it. I have to force myself to include any visual descriptions, and when I do they're either overly metaphorical, or dully uninspired].
But, fortunately, good writing does not require good, concise visual description. [Indeed, modern styles tend to discourage too much description]. Many great writers largely eschew visual description, prefering either to hurry events along (maintaining broad clarity of space and action through peripheral remarks), or to convey emotional mood or intellectual theme through tangential remarks. How do your characters feel? What are they thinking of? What are YOU thinking of?
So, for example...
Spoiler:
Writing is something that can be learned - if your brain allows you to engage in forums and write arms-length descriptions of your setting, it allows you to write narrative (though if you have a specific injury, like a problem with visual imagination, your style may need to find ways to circumvent that obstacle).
Of course, really good writing is something that usually takes several decades of study to master...
*a hypocritical question, as I haven't even read ten books this year. If I wrote like I read today, my prose would be really appalling (rather than just overblown, as it is). Fortunately, I read extensively as a boy, and I mostly try to read good books now, to make up for the low quantum.
- fruityloops
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
i don't wanna waste money so i have no other choice but to read short stories. i have a short attention span sooo.
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
I don't think buying a good book is a waste of money.
- alynnidalar
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Have you no access to libraries? Many libraries these days also offer ebooks, so if you have a library card, you could look into getting ebooks if you don't have transportation to the library.
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Aside from books being a cheap source of entertainment in general - compare the price of a book and the length of time you enjoy it for, vs a film or a meal, for example - novels seem like a better deal than a short story anthology anyway - since you're unlikely to like all the short stories in a collection.
That said, short stories can be well-written too, so even if you just read free online stories (and there are several award-winning SF&F story zines available without charge), that's something.
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
There are different stylistic considerations between short stories and novels. In general, the longer a piece of writing, the more time you have to develop themes and characters, so you can chew on description a little more, and let dialogue breathe a little more. It's less imperative that everything contribute to the Ticking Clock (if you have one). Whereas shorter stories are better when they focus on one character, or one event, and tie a neat little bow around it.
Somewhat instructive in this is Vernor Vinge's short story (/novella) "Fast Times at Fairmont High" and his book Rainbows End. The book is basically an expansion of the short story, and while the short story focuses pretty much on one character and theme (though with some digression for world-building), the book is able to bring in a lot more characters and weave things together in a way that would just make the short story jumbled.
There's a trend in contemporary books—as Sal alluded to—especially YA and thriller to use an incredibly frenetic style with little time spent on description. Instead, it's about short, punchy scenes, usually written in 1st person present, to "keep the reader's interest" and push the plot and characters along without necessarily giving them (or the reader) time to breathe. The Hunger Games trilogy does this to an extent, though it pulls it off better than some other samples from published thriller novels I've encountered. It's about in line with the current trend in action movies to use a ton of quick cuts and constantly having things happen so the audience doesn't get bored or accidentally start to think about how ridiculous the plot is. (You never have to think deep about your world if you never give any details!)
Personally, I hate that style. I don't mind the text (or the camera) lingering a little on the descriptions and details—and you can do some very interesting characterization there, depending on how close to a character's point of view the narrator is. In my opinion, it adds to the world and ultimately makes a book much more memorable.
For instance, in N. K. Jemison's Broken Earth trilogy, some of the parts that stood out to me were simply the little bits of world-building that were done. The discussion of asphalt and how novel it was. The little bits after each chapter quoting historical texts or letters or what have you. The way the narrator sometimes just kind of winds discussion into things. The action didn't need to be omnipresent, and the lingering done in the text paints the world far better than just rushing through it would have.
But, there are a lot of different styles, and they work for different purposes. It's worth it, in my opinion, to play with a range of styles and see their strengths and weaknesses.
Also, libraries exist, and you should patronize them if you don't want to spend the money on books. They really do have a lot of great stuff.
Somewhat instructive in this is Vernor Vinge's short story (/novella) "Fast Times at Fairmont High" and his book Rainbows End. The book is basically an expansion of the short story, and while the short story focuses pretty much on one character and theme (though with some digression for world-building), the book is able to bring in a lot more characters and weave things together in a way that would just make the short story jumbled.
There's a trend in contemporary books—as Sal alluded to—especially YA and thriller to use an incredibly frenetic style with little time spent on description. Instead, it's about short, punchy scenes, usually written in 1st person present, to "keep the reader's interest" and push the plot and characters along without necessarily giving them (or the reader) time to breathe. The Hunger Games trilogy does this to an extent, though it pulls it off better than some other samples from published thriller novels I've encountered. It's about in line with the current trend in action movies to use a ton of quick cuts and constantly having things happen so the audience doesn't get bored or accidentally start to think about how ridiculous the plot is. (You never have to think deep about your world if you never give any details!)
Personally, I hate that style. I don't mind the text (or the camera) lingering a little on the descriptions and details—and you can do some very interesting characterization there, depending on how close to a character's point of view the narrator is. In my opinion, it adds to the world and ultimately makes a book much more memorable.
For instance, in N. K. Jemison's Broken Earth trilogy, some of the parts that stood out to me were simply the little bits of world-building that were done. The discussion of asphalt and how novel it was. The little bits after each chapter quoting historical texts or letters or what have you. The way the narrator sometimes just kind of winds discussion into things. The action didn't need to be omnipresent, and the lingering done in the text paints the world far better than just rushing through it would have.
But, there are a lot of different styles, and they work for different purposes. It's worth it, in my opinion, to play with a range of styles and see their strengths and weaknesses.
Also, libraries exist, and you should patronize them if you don't want to spend the money on books. They really do have a lot of great stuff.
- fruityloops
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
it's my parents and i want to save money for art supplies (although i have a thousand dollars on my belt)...like i would kill to get a good anthology book or novel but i'm stuck with ebooks.
note: we're getting a bit off topic sooo let's end it here and restart. anyone else want to share opinions on why humans are the focus in most stories?
note: we're getting a bit off topic sooo let's end it here and restart. anyone else want to share opinions on why humans are the focus in most stories?
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Ultimately I think all the answers given thus far boil down to "they're easy". Easy to write about (because they're us); easy to read about (because they're us); easy to predict (because, well); easy to digest (no, not thát way!); easy to understand.fruityloops wrote: ↑18 May 2018 13:49 note: we're getting a bit off topic sooo let's end it here and restart. anyone else want to share opinions on why humans are the focus in most stories?
The minute you introduce any kind of non-human person, be it an angel or demon, a Vulcan or a Klingon, a Daine or an Elf or a Fairy or any of a crore of other races, you introduce uncertainty, mystery and that which is completely out of experience. Both of reader (relatability) and author (writability) alike. I think most authors focus on humans and relegate the other races to the sidelines simply because they have no real idea what it is to bé Elf, to bé Angel, to bé Fairy. Not in any deep in the bones way.
It is much harder to write about and center a whole story on another kind of person simply because of all the work that must go into imagining how every detail of anatomy, physiology, body, mind, spirit & soul work in concert. I'm not talking about a few attribute classes like you might find in an RPG, but really what makes the Other tick, how do they react and why do they react that way when it's so obvious that . . . oh, yeah, they aren't Us! In order to do them justice, an author would have to spend a lot of time thinking about them, and thinking like them. In the same way an actor gets into character by modelling himself after who he's depicting, an author would literally have to transform herself into a person of the other race. Feel what they feel; experience what they experience; live how they live.
Then she'd have to come back from that wandering and make that experience relatable to an audience. I honestly think such an approach might take too long to be of great worth for most writers. Their goal is to churn out words and turn them into dollars. It would be much more expedient (and lucrative) to put together a few surface facts about another race, create a shallow simulacrum and leave it at that.
- DesEsseintes
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
I enjoyed those four passages very much and am a great fan of your writings about your conworlding/langing, and therefore wondered if you’ve written any short stories or such that can be read online? If so, would you be willing to post some links? If not, just out of curiosity, are you interested in writing your own fiction at some point?
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
In the Census, there are some links to lovely examples of Salmoneus's writing! (And I'm one who's putting in a nother vote to see more of his fiction writing here!)DesEsseintes wrote: ↑20 May 2018 06:27I enjoyed those four passages very much and am a great fan of your writings about your conworlding/langing, and therefore wondered if you’ve written any short stories or such that can be read online? If so, would you be willing to post some links? If not, just out of curiosity, are you interested in writing your own fiction at some point?
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Speaking of my own project, The Elvenpath, the main reason why my Elves are humans, nothing more and nothing less, is: I want to express my views of the human condition and the meaning of life through the project. And that demands that the characters are human, because with non-human characters, I couldn't say anything about the human condition because the characters would be different. Anyone could say, "Well, yes, it may work for them, but they are not human!" I don't want that. So my characters are human. (Also, of course, the thing is meant as a historical fantasy, set in a real place, namely the British Isles, and we can be pretty sure that whoever lived in the British Isles at any of the time covered was human.)
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Another world I wish we'd hear more about here! :(WeepingElf wrote: ↑20 May 2018 16:56 Speaking of my own project, The Elvenpath, the main reason why my Elves are humans, nothing more and nothing less, is: I want to express my views of the human condition and the meaning of life through the project. And that demands that the characters are human, because with non-human characters, I couldn't say anything about the human condition because the characters would be different. Anyone could say, "Well, yes, it may work for them, but they are not human!" I don't want that. So my characters are human. (Also, of course, the thing is meant as a historical fantasy, set in a real place, namely the British Isles, and we can be pretty sure that whoever lived in the British Isles at any of the time covered was human.)
- WeepingElf
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
It is currently very much WIP, but I shall post here when I have more to present. For the time being, a brief and woefully incomplete summary of the history of the Elves can be found here.elemtilas wrote: ↑20 May 2018 21:24Another world I wish we'd hear more about here! :(WeepingElf wrote: ↑20 May 2018 16:56 Speaking of my own project, The Elvenpath, the main reason why my Elves are humans, nothing more and nothing less, is: I want to express my views of the human condition and the meaning of life through the project. And that demands that the characters are human, because with non-human characters, I couldn't say anything about the human condition because the characters would be different. Anyone could say, "Well, yes, it may work for them, but they are not human!" I don't want that. So my characters are human. (Also, of course, the thing is meant as a historical fantasy, set in a real place, namely the British Isles, and we can be pretty sure that whoever lived in the British Isles at any of the time covered was human.)
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
My conlang pages
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Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Thank you.DesEsseintes wrote: ↑20 May 2018 06:27I enjoyed those four passages very much and am a great fan of your writings about your conworlding/langing,
Yes...and therefore wondered if you’ve written any short stories
...but no. Other than slightly narrative conworlding infodumps. I don't like the idea of posting online. If it's something I really like, I don't want to automatically throw away any chance of later publication. But if it's something I don't really like (more likely!), I don't really want it displayed on the internet for all eternity for people to see and be disappointed by.or such that can be read online?
What I have done is send out stories to readers for feedback every couple of years. If you really wanted, I could probably send you a few stories at some point in the near future. But please, don't feel obliged to remain interested...
Yes; but I rarely seem to be in the right mood and properly inspired at the same time, these days...If not, just out of curiosity, are you interested in writing your own fiction at some point?
There's also an additional problem that the stories I DO manage to finish are weird/boring. I think I'm just not sufficiently enthused by conventional plots (and/or I lack the imagination required to make them interesting), so the things I do manage to finish tend to be sort of peculiar, and probably not of any interest to anyone other than me.
Re: why is it that in many fantasy stories, humans are the focus?
Now on this matter I must most strenuously disagree with you!Salmoneus wrote: ↑24 May 2018 17:45Yes; but I rarely seem to be in the right mood and properly inspired at the same time, these days...
There's also an additional problem that the stories I DO manage to finish are weird/boring. I think I'm just not sufficiently enthused by conventional plots (and/or I lack the imagination required to make them interesting), so the things I do manage to finish tend to be sort of peculiar, and probably not of any interest to anyone other than me.
You have at least one fan of your writing here (me!) and I know others would love to see more stories and world tidbits from you!
And I am unanimous in that.