A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

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A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Silent Member »

This is a system of elements I devised for a never developed conculture. I was aiming for a complex system, which I believe I achieved, but I wish to know if it is any good and what can be improved on.
This is also my first real post on any of my stuff.

NOTE: I plan on posting this on both boards.
And this is just my notes/info on it. I have not attempted (yet) to organize it into a more readable form. (if one exists)

There are eight elements: fire, air, water, life, earth, metal, light, and dark. These are called pure elements. They each are paired with another: fire/air since air grows fire and fire makes air, water/life since water makes life and life makes water, earth/metal since earth contains metal and metal helps tend earth, and light/dark since light creates dark and dark shows light. They also all have opposites: fire/water since fire removes water and water kills fire, air/earth since air scatters earth and earth smothers air, life/metal since life bends and melts metal and metal kills life, and light/dark since light extinguishes dark and dark covers light. Light and dark are seen as the harmonious elements since they are paired and opposed. They are used to help the people understand peace. Light and dark are also seen as the composite elements, as in they’re made up of three of the other elements. Fire, water, and earth make up light since fire gives light, water lets light through, and earth accepts light. Air, life, and metal make up dark since air cannot be seen by light, life lets dark through, and metal does not accept light just like dark doesn’t. These three states can be seen as the producer, the window, and the incarnation. The first creates, second shows and the third accepts its self and rejects the other. Each of the paired elements can be combined to form another element, except light and dark, they themselves already combined. These are called mixed elements. Fire and air make smoke, water and life make blood, and earth and metal make jewels/gems. Each of the opposing elements can be combined to form another element, except light and dark, they themselves already combined. These are called tainted elements. Fire and water make steam, air and earth make dust, and life and metal make sparks. If you were to replace in a mixed element one element with the other in an opposition, the new element is called a poisoned element. Fire and earth make lava, water and air make bubbles, water and metal makes rust, fire and life makes death, earth and life make animals, and air and metal make machinery. Each of the original elements has a quality to it that remains in each of its “other forms.” Each elements’ qualities show their double-edged nature; they are one, yet are easily the other. Fire is temporary yet empowering, air is corruptible but fresh, water is harsh yet beautiful, life is strong yet delicate, earth is movable yet defensive, metal is yet changeable yet resilient, light is destructive yet good, and dark is pleasant yet bad. The entire system shows that each element is distinct but indistinct. It shows harmony with war; light and dark are the pure models. The other elements are at least subtly the same.

Also I am not a newb, but possibly still a noob. I have been doing this for a while now, but haven't really done much.
I'd also like to know if I made any spelling mistakes since I do not like to do it.
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Maximillian »

Silent Member wrote:Light and dark are also seen as the composite elements
If light and dark are made of other elements, than they can't be really "pure". Element, as the word suggests, is something that can't be divided into smaller pieces.
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Delia »

Okay, I'm going to be totally honest. The first thing I thought of was the TV trope Elemental Rock Paper Scissors. That doesn't mean it's bad necessarily--just that your use of said trope is somewhat obvious.

That said, your system of elements cancelling out other elements is fairly thorough--which is good. And I like the inclusion of the 'life' element.
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Silent Member »

Maximillian wrote:
Silent Member wrote:Light and dark are also seen as the composite elements
If light and dark are made of other elements, than they can't be really "pure". Element, as the word suggests, is something that can't be divided into smaller pieces.
Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I could justify it now by saying when the three elements are combined, light or dark is formed and cannot be reseperated. They are entirely new. Something like alchemy, I guess.
Delia wrote:Okay, I'm going to be totally honest. The first thing I thought of was the TV trope Elemental Rock Paper Scissors. That doesn't mean it's bad necessarily--just that your use of said trope is somewhat obvious.

That said, your system of elements cancelling out other elements is fairly thorough--which is good. And I like the inclusion of the 'life' element.
To be honest I never thought about it. I guess that means it's original and unoriginal, maybe.

Also, thank you. :mrgreen: When you comment on the life element it reminds me that near the end of my total list of elemental combos I was running out of ideas and put down things like "machine" as a kind of element. If anyone can think of something better for those kind of things I'd like to know.
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Delia »

Nah, things like 'machine' just make it more interesting, IMO.

This was part of the huge appeal of the Pokemon type system. Sure, right in the starter three there are basics like fire and water...but then once you get more into the game, you get to all these more unusual types like ghost and dragon. There was a lot originality and extensiveness in the system--I mean, where else are you going to find a separate 'bug' or 'steel' element?
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Veris »

You said one of your goals was complexity, which you think you achieved. I don't think so.
This is a complex system of elements. Yours is more like something you'd see in a videogame.

Also, you seem not to realize that other people aren't you. That sounds weird to even write, but what I mean is, your explanations are very brief, and seem to presume that we understand what you understand, which is probably not the case. I really don't know what you mean by half of what you wrote. Earth "accepts" light? Life "lets dark through?" I can't figure out what you might mean by that. Perhaps you could explain it more clearly. Also, I suspect that by whatever definition you're using, some metals do, in fact, "accept light."

I don't understand "These three states can be seen as the producer, the window, and the incarnation. The first creates, second shows and the third accepts its self and rejects the other." either. Perhaps you could explain how the first "creates," how the second "shows," etc.

Why do life and metal make sparks? Sparks come from metal and another, different sort of metal, or metal and electrical current, or certain types of stone.

Also, fire and life make death? That seems arbitrary. Sure, fire can kill you, but so can any of the other elements, not to mention the fact that fire gives us light, heat, fuel and a means to cook food. Fire seems very conducive to life to me.

How about earth and life making animals -- shouldn't that be plants? How about air and metal for machinery? I'm not following. Unless you include lightning as a part of air.

Can you explain the origin of your terminology a bit more? Why are certain elements considered "tainted" or "poisoned?" Bubbles being poison is pretty funny, actually. Not to mention that "bubbles" as an element is hilarious.
Silent Member wrote:Each of the original elements has a quality to it that remains in each of its “other forms.” Each elements’ qualities show their double-edged nature; they are one, yet are easily the other. Fire is temporary yet empowering, air is corruptible but fresh, water is harsh yet beautiful, life is strong yet delicate, earth is movable yet defensive, metal is yet changeable yet resilient, light is destructive yet good, and dark is pleasant yet bad. The entire system shows that each element is distinct but indistinct. It shows harmony with war; light and dark are the pure models. The other elements are at least subtly the same.
That's poetic, but not clear. What, exactly, shows harmony with war? And what is "showing harmony with war" in the first place?

Coincidentally, is English your first language?
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Silent Member »

@Veris English is my first language. If you ask since I want to know any of my mistakes, I just like to know.

To address each point, not in complete order,
-When I said complex I meant that all the elements are intertwined in some way, like with the pairs, the opposed, etc.
-When I think about the producer, window thing, that was something I just recently added. I was trying to find a connection between the lights and the darks. I think now that I should remove that little feature, or try for better things to say for it.
-"Life" also means energy, and sparks, to these non-existent people, are metallic energy, therefore the two make this one.*
-Fire may help life, but it very much is a destroyer, especially when people, life, use it as a weapon.
-It is believed that animals were made from earth, but earth on its own is only earth. It, at least to me, seems a very normal kind of concept.
-Air+Metal was one of those I couldn't find an element for. My justification is that a machine is made of metal and the movement uses air.*
-"Harmony with war" means that the elements try to destroy and help each other at the same time. I think I should change it to "Peace with war" instead.
-The terms:
--Mixed = Should be self-explanatory.
--Tainted = Two opposed elements intermingling. Should be changed, now, to poisoned.
--Poisoned = An element with the opposite of its pair. (eg. A and B are paired. A and C are opposed. C and B are poisoned.) Should be changed, now, to tainted.
I am considering a new kind of element where an element is put with its opposite's pair, but I think it is the same as a poisoned element. I need to test that out.
-Since the example you pointed out is from the light/dark composite section, those are the only ones I will explain. Ask and I will explain the others.
--Fire gives off light.
--Light can travel through water.
--Earth absorbs light; it does not bounce off or change direction. You can say it's letting light into its house, while metal reflects light.
--The other three are assumed to do the same things for darkness since they do not do these things for light.

*These are all explanations that I just now came up with.

I think I answered all your questions, and please do not hesitate to ask them. I want to improve it, it may just help when/if I make a people to go with it.
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Veris »

How about, still, earth "accepts" light? Life "lets dark through?"

Also, amusingly, earth does not absorb light. The phenomenon we know as "sight" is caused when photons (particles of light) bounce off objects, and our eyes capture those reflected photons. Technically, black objects do "absorb" light because the phenomenon we know as "color" occurs because certain wavelengths of the photon are reflected more intensely than others when they hit certain objects. We perceive these variations as "color." But otherwise, all solid material reflects light.

You say that "life also means energy." What do you mean by "energy," exactly? There's no such thing as "pure energy," energy only comes in flavored forms such as heat (the energy of movement) and electricity (the energy of current).

Also, while "sparks are like machine's life/energy" may make sense to you and/or your people, you didn't say that this is necessarily the way your conworld actually functions. It's useful to deliniate between your own ideas, your conpeoples beliefs, and the actual reality of their conworld.
Last edited by Veris on 01 Apr 2013 18:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Silent Member »

Again, I will attempt to answer your points., this time in order.
-I answered the first part, but look below for the rest of the answer.
-Energy as spirit, soul, that which makes stuff move. That help?
-Okay, this system is my nonexistent conpeople's beliefs. It's like the european "earth, air, fire, water" system. The world in which they would live would be more like earth. Of course, none of these exist even in my head.
-These people would look at it as how the world works. They wouldn't know how the world truly works.
I don't expect this answer to be completely satisfactory, but I don't claim it is. Again, I like the criticisms and questions, even if now it seems I don't or am not listening. If it seems the latter, it's probably because I don't know that I'm not.
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by BagelBomb »

Okay, so I had a lot of free time today, and I dissected your system so I could understand it a little better, and made a (very sloppy) diagram of it for ya!

Image

And I took the liberty of organizing your thoughts a little better:
There are eight "Pure Elements", each with two inherent qualities:
FIRE is temporary and empowering
AIR is corruptible yet fresh
WATER is harsh yet beautiful
LIFE is delicate yet strong
EARTH is movable yet defensive
METAL is malleable yet resilient
LIGHT is destructive yet good
DARK is bad yet pleasant

All of the elements come in cooperative pairs, which help to produce or maintain both elements:
FIRE releases AIR, and AIR nourishes FIRE
LIFE releases WATER, and WATER nourishes LIFE
EARTH releases METAL, and METAL nourishes EARTH
LIGHT creates DARK, and DARK shows LIGHT

All of the elements also come in opposing pairs, which destroy each other:
FIRE boils WATER, and WATER douses FIRE
AIR scatters EARTH, and EARTH smothers AIR
LIFE manipulates METAL, and METAL kills LIFE
LIGHT banishes DARK, and DARK obscures LIGHT

LIGHT and DARK are special. Because they are both cooperative and opposed, they are called "Harmonious Elements", and they are used to help the people understand peace.
In addition to being "Pure Elements" they also each manifest certain aspects in three of the other elements.
The three aspect roles are: Producer, which creates LIGHT or DARK; Window, which permits LIGHT or DARK; and Incarnation, which accepts either LIGHT or DARK, but rejects the other.

LIGHT is produced by FIRE, allowed to pass by WATER, and accepted by EARTH.
DARK is produced by AIR, allowed to pass by LIFE, and accepted by METAL.

LIGHT and DARK are already inextricably bound as one, and cannot be further combined with other elements.
However, each of the other cooperatively paired elements can combine to form "Mixed Elements", which retain one quality from each of their "parents":
FIRE and AIR make SMOKE ((temporary and corrupted? really go through each of these and think about the qualities.))
WATER and LIFE make BLOOD
EARTH and METAL make GEMS

Each opposing pair can also combine to form a "Tainted Element"
FIRE and WATER make STEAM
AIR and EARTH make DUST
LIFE and METAL make SPARKS

If one of the elements in a cooperative pair is replaced by its opposite, then a "Poisoned Element" is created.
FIRE and EARTH make LAVA
AIR and WATER make FOAM
WATER and METAL make RUST
LIFE and FIRE make DEATH
EARTH and LIFE make BEAST (but what about plants??)
METAL and AIR make MACHINE
Now, some critique. This is how I'd make this system, if it were mine, feel free to disregard what you don't like!

- I think you really must rethink the innate qualities of your pure elements, so that they make a bit more sense when making compound elements.
- Personally, I'd make the cooperative pairs FIRE-METAL, AIR-WATER, LIFE-EARTH, and LIGHT-DARK. FIRE/AIR/LIFE would be LIGHT, and METAL/WATER/EARTH would be dark.
- Following the above, I'd go a different route and say "LIGHT is produced by FIRE, allowed to pass by AIR, and accepted by LIFE." and "DARK is produced by EARTH, allowed to pass by WATER, and accepted by METAL." since water and metal both somewhat reflect light (are shiny), rather than take it in.
- I changed BUBBLES to FOAM and ANIMALS to BEAST. Couldn't help myself. :p
- You're missing some combinations! What about EARTH/WATER, METAL/FIRE, and AIR/LIFE?

If you'd like me to make another diagram using my ideas for your system, just ask! :D
(I have a lot more ideas for your system than what I just said here. I'd probably change some more of the element names and element categories, too.)
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Silent Member »

Since you offered, could you remake the thing w/ your ideas? It probably help me see it better. And I didn't read through all that you wrote in the middle. If there's something in there you want me to see, let me know. I did like the diagram, though.
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Re: A System of (Classical-ish) Elements

Post by Malloriel »

I think what I see here is less what you would call "complex" and more what you would call "convoluted", a mistake that is easy to make. One could easily look at something complex and misunderstand, therefore seeing convolution, but when one looks at something convoluted, there is rarely anything truly complex about it.

I seek to work with complexity myself, intricacy, interweaving stories and elements, etc., and part of that complexity stems not from the number of options you choose to associate with any given thread, but with how natural you make the thread become. For instance, Fire and Water. It is true that when Fire and Water combine on land, the result is a boiling of the water, resulting in steam. Now this steam could be the steam rising from a pot of water, it could be the Fire burning away the Water, or it could be the Water overwhelming the Fire. All of these are true. But what about the fact that there are vents at the bottom of the ocean which pump out tremendous amounts of heat, around which life thrives, and without which those creatures would die in an instant. Temperatures that would scald the flesh of a human in an instant, harboring, sheltering, encouraging life.

I have my own elemental system of fourteen, some of which are your classical or anticipated elements, some of which are not. Before I really set down in defining any of them, their attributes, their powers and effects, their influences on society, I looked at what others had done before me and it helped me to decide what was right for my conworld and conpeople. My best advice to building this project of yours would be to do the same, to understand how others see these elements, how other cultures, other individuals, other religions view these elements, and then decide what it is YOU like about them, what it is YOU feel about them. When YOU have a solid connection with the element ("I want Darkness to represent Shelter." for instance) then the complexity fills itself in for you, and you don't have to stretch and grasp at things to fill in the blanks left behind.
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