Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Talk like an Indo-Europeanist
Atman's entirely serious guide to IE technical vocabulary, phrases and jargon
INDO-EUROPEANISTS
kʷékʷlos klan: the Indo-European studies research community
American PIE: several eminent IEists are based in the United States
feeling lost like a laryngeal: a common situation for the beginner in IE studies
easy as PIE: on the other hand, experienced Ieists don't think the reconstructed language is that hard to work with
who ate all the PIEs?: some IE researchers happen to be overweight
RUKI: beginner student of Indo-European
wáy!: damn, another budget cut for our IE linguistics department!
a heck of a lot of wérǵom: putting together a new etymological dictionary of PIE is hard work
h3égʷʰim égwhent (he slayed the serpent): used when an Indo-Europeanist manages to finish a new book after working on it for years
h3nómn̩-ḱlutós (name-fame): things in IE studies carry the name of their discoverers forever (Narten ablaut, Caland system, Grassmann's law...)
RECONSTRUCTION ISSUES
fifty shades of h1rudhrós: it's not easy to reconstruct PIE color terms
love of the Kurgan people: sex, marriage and family in PIE times
it's a long way to Dnipropetrovsk: it took a lifetime to find the PIE homeland
PIE in the sky: fascinating but unproven hypotheses like Indo-Uralic, Nostratic, Eurasiatic, the Old European Hydronymy...
PIE in the face: some ideas are just laughable
no matter how you slice the PIE: on the contrary, other things are pretty uncontroversial
have your PIE and eat it too: beware of the dangers of overreconstruction
eat humble PIE: mistakes happen in IE studies
shepherd's PIE: why are Indo-Europeanists always talking about sheep in a plain?
have one's fingers in many PIEs: when one can't settle for a specific reconstruction
the éǵhs-files: in moments of desperation, some people think PIE is too complicated to be a mere Earth language; it must come from somewhere else
the dark side of the PIE: the history of IE studies is full of political arguments, racism, and features things like Nazi German intelligence agencies and Soviet researchers lost in the steppe never to be heard of again...
comparative method: white magic
internal reconstruction: black magic
applying the comparative method to forms obtained by internal reconstruction: don't try this at home, kids!
putting the wóǵʰom before the h1éḱwom (putting the cart before the horse): doing things backwards (thanks Lambu)
INDO-EUROPEAN SCHOLARLY ARTICLES
First of all, always remember that Indo-Europeanists love German words: ablaut, umlaut, auslaut, anlaut, Gruppenflexion, Stammbildung...
And Sanskrit ones: tudati presents, svarabhakti vowels, set and anit roots, tatpurusha and bahuvrihi compounds...
AND HOW TO COMMENT ON SAID ARTICLES
can't tell laryngeals from laryngitis: the author is incompetent
too much médhu: the author must've been drunk
h1m̩m̩m̩: at times it's hard to pick an etymology over another
kʷód?: you can't be serious, can you?
lewkóm!: brilliant!
ḱléwos n̩dhgwhitóm (eternal glory): congratulations!
h3gʷʰr̩r̩r̩r̩r̩: I suspect your methodology might not be quite sound
pace: dude, I don't think you got it right this time
contra: well, we'll agree to disagree, I suppose
unsupported: bullshit
idiosyncratic: bullshit
certainly premature: bullshit
Atman's entirely serious guide to IE technical vocabulary, phrases and jargon
INDO-EUROPEANISTS
kʷékʷlos klan: the Indo-European studies research community
American PIE: several eminent IEists are based in the United States
feeling lost like a laryngeal: a common situation for the beginner in IE studies
easy as PIE: on the other hand, experienced Ieists don't think the reconstructed language is that hard to work with
who ate all the PIEs?: some IE researchers happen to be overweight
RUKI: beginner student of Indo-European
wáy!: damn, another budget cut for our IE linguistics department!
a heck of a lot of wérǵom: putting together a new etymological dictionary of PIE is hard work
h3égʷʰim égwhent (he slayed the serpent): used when an Indo-Europeanist manages to finish a new book after working on it for years
h3nómn̩-ḱlutós (name-fame): things in IE studies carry the name of their discoverers forever (Narten ablaut, Caland system, Grassmann's law...)
RECONSTRUCTION ISSUES
fifty shades of h1rudhrós: it's not easy to reconstruct PIE color terms
love of the Kurgan people: sex, marriage and family in PIE times
it's a long way to Dnipropetrovsk: it took a lifetime to find the PIE homeland
PIE in the sky: fascinating but unproven hypotheses like Indo-Uralic, Nostratic, Eurasiatic, the Old European Hydronymy...
PIE in the face: some ideas are just laughable
no matter how you slice the PIE: on the contrary, other things are pretty uncontroversial
have your PIE and eat it too: beware of the dangers of overreconstruction
eat humble PIE: mistakes happen in IE studies
shepherd's PIE: why are Indo-Europeanists always talking about sheep in a plain?
have one's fingers in many PIEs: when one can't settle for a specific reconstruction
the éǵhs-files: in moments of desperation, some people think PIE is too complicated to be a mere Earth language; it must come from somewhere else
the dark side of the PIE: the history of IE studies is full of political arguments, racism, and features things like Nazi German intelligence agencies and Soviet researchers lost in the steppe never to be heard of again...
comparative method: white magic
internal reconstruction: black magic
applying the comparative method to forms obtained by internal reconstruction: don't try this at home, kids!
putting the wóǵʰom before the h1éḱwom (putting the cart before the horse): doing things backwards (thanks Lambu)
INDO-EUROPEAN SCHOLARLY ARTICLES
First of all, always remember that Indo-Europeanists love German words: ablaut, umlaut, auslaut, anlaut, Gruppenflexion, Stammbildung...
And Sanskrit ones: tudati presents, svarabhakti vowels, set and anit roots, tatpurusha and bahuvrihi compounds...
AND HOW TO COMMENT ON SAID ARTICLES
can't tell laryngeals from laryngitis: the author is incompetent
too much médhu: the author must've been drunk
h1m̩m̩m̩: at times it's hard to pick an etymology over another
kʷód?: you can't be serious, can you?
lewkóm!: brilliant!
ḱléwos n̩dhgwhitóm (eternal glory): congratulations!
h3gʷʰr̩r̩r̩r̩r̩: I suspect your methodology might not be quite sound
pace: dude, I don't think you got it right this time
contra: well, we'll agree to disagree, I suppose
unsupported: bullshit
idiosyncratic: bullshit
certainly premature: bullshit
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
- HinGambleGoth
- sinic
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 01 Jul 2014 05:29
- Location: gøtalandum
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Whenever in doubt about the origin of an unexpected vowel in some old IE-language, just say "must be some other ablaut-grade" and move on.
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
If PIE had postpositions and some descendants have prepositions, and these prepositions actually come from the PIE postpositions, how come those adpositions just changed place?
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Because I don't think they were true postpositions anyway, I think they were supposed to be some sort of auxiliary verb as well or something.loglorn wrote:If PIE had postpositions and some descendants have prepositions, and these prepositions actually come from the PIE postpositions, how come those adpositions just changed place?
: | : | : | :
Conlangs: Hawntow, Yorkish, misc.
she/her
Conlangs: Hawntow, Yorkish, misc.
she/her
- eldin raigmore
- korean
- Posts: 6353
- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
- Location: SouthEast Michigan
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Don't more adpositions descend etymologically from adverbs than from any other single part-of-speech? (Though, if I understand correctly, not from all other parts-of-speech taken together.)
And don't more case-endings descend etymologically from postpositions (or at least from adpositions) than from any other single etymological source? (Again, AIUI, not from all other sources taken together.)
A verbal auxiliary needn't be a verb nor even act like a verb.
An auxiliary-word is a verbal auxiliary if it tells at least one of: aspect, modality/mode/mood, polarity, tense, and/or voice; of the main verb, possibly along with other information.
Verbal auxiliary words which inflect, usually act syntactically as if they are verbs which have the main verb as their object.
Verbal auxiliary particles -- words which don't inflect -- have idiosyncratic syntactic behavior.
A modifier which can modify a verb or a verb-phrase or a clause or a sentence, is (one kind of) adverb.
(Any modifier which isn't an adjective is an adverb; if it modifies anything other than nouns and noun-phrases -- for instance, verbs or adjectives or other adverbs -- it's an adverb. But right now I'm only interested in ad-verbal adverbs, not ad-adjectival adverbs etc.)
There tends to be semantic and grammatical overlap between ad-verbal adverbs and verbal auxiliary-words.
Could some of these "postpositions" have been better-classified, or at least also-classified, as adverbs or as verbal auxiliary-words?
And don't more case-endings descend etymologically from postpositions (or at least from adpositions) than from any other single etymological source? (Again, AIUI, not from all other sources taken together.)
A verbal auxiliary needn't be a verb nor even act like a verb.
An auxiliary-word is a verbal auxiliary if it tells at least one of: aspect, modality/mode/mood, polarity, tense, and/or voice; of the main verb, possibly along with other information.
Verbal auxiliary words which inflect, usually act syntactically as if they are verbs which have the main verb as their object.
Verbal auxiliary particles -- words which don't inflect -- have idiosyncratic syntactic behavior.
A modifier which can modify a verb or a verb-phrase or a clause or a sentence, is (one kind of) adverb.
(Any modifier which isn't an adjective is an adverb; if it modifies anything other than nouns and noun-phrases -- for instance, verbs or adjectives or other adverbs -- it's an adverb. But right now I'm only interested in ad-verbal adverbs, not ad-adjectival adverbs etc.)
There tends to be semantic and grammatical overlap between ad-verbal adverbs and verbal auxiliary-words.
Could some of these "postpositions" have been better-classified, or at least also-classified, as adverbs or as verbal auxiliary-words?
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
I think it's often said that PIE "adpositions" were more like adverbs. Beekes writes:
"PIE did not have preverbs or pre- or postpositions, only adverbs (which became pre-verbs, etc., in the individual languages)." (Comparative Indo-European Linguistics, 2nd ed. p. 173)
It's never been quite clear to me exactly what this means. I'm not sure what the difference would be between a postposition and an adverb that is placed after a noun to describe it. But perhaps they were different in some sense:
1. They could be positioned away from the noun.
2. They didn't govern any particular case. The choice of case was more semantically conditioned (as I believe it is in Vedic still).
In any case, there's nothing strange about postpositions becoming prepositions. This happened in Germanic for example. Early Germanic had mostly postpositions (and I think they were true postpostions) but later languages obviously have mostly prepositions. Both positions were possible for a long time. These changes happened together with many other changes in word order.
"PIE did not have preverbs or pre- or postpositions, only adverbs (which became pre-verbs, etc., in the individual languages)." (Comparative Indo-European Linguistics, 2nd ed. p. 173)
It's never been quite clear to me exactly what this means. I'm not sure what the difference would be between a postposition and an adverb that is placed after a noun to describe it. But perhaps they were different in some sense:
1. They could be positioned away from the noun.
2. They didn't govern any particular case. The choice of case was more semantically conditioned (as I believe it is in Vedic still).
In any case, there's nothing strange about postpositions becoming prepositions. This happened in Germanic for example. Early Germanic had mostly postpositions (and I think they were true postpostions) but later languages obviously have mostly prepositions. Both positions were possible for a long time. These changes happened together with many other changes in word order.
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
loglorn wrote:If PIE had postpositions and some descendants have prepositions, and these prepositions actually come from the PIE postpositions, how come those adpositions just changed place?
On a smaller diachronic scale, just take a look at the Italic languages. Oscan and Umbrian used postpositions (presumably from PIE), while (Old Latin) used some post-positions as well, while virtually non survived into Classical Latin, save -cum (e.g. mecum, tecum, nobiscum). Though not technically prepositions, the conjunctions
-que and -ve might form a sixter taxon.
On a somewhat similar note, the freaky-deaky ADJ + PRP + NOUN that exists in Latin might also be some kind of weird vermiform-appendix/coccyx holdover from PIE (e.g. quam ob rem, magna cum laude, etc.).
which see-
http://www.academia.edu/2134498/The_wor ... _Sabellian
Talk like and Indo-Europeanist
¡Justo y necesario!
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Thank you! But I'm not done yet...Lambuzhao wrote:Talk like and Indo-Europeanist
¡Justo y necesario!
Talk like an Indo-Europeanist - Addendum
The Indo-European Big Three: Latin, Greek and Sanskrit. Learn 'em, you've got no choice.
The Indo-European Significant Seven: Hittite, Tocharian B, Avestan, Gothic, Classical Armenian, Old Irish, Old Church Slavonic. Studying one or two of these doesn't hurt either.
feeling productive like a r/n heteroclite: when you can't get anything done
feeling productive like a thematic stem: when you're really on fire
PIE for breakfast: the best reconstruction ideas come in the morning
passim: read the whole paper, lazy ass!
Festschrift: birthday PIE for noted Indo-Europeanists
steppe by steppe: Indo-European studies should be approached gradually
a larger share of the PIE: Indo-European studies would deserve more attention and respect these days
freshly-baked PIE: recent theories likely to have a bright future (the h2e-conjugation, the a/o ablaut series...)
late PIE: what... do you mean my revolutionary new theory on Indo-European was already proposed, discussed and debunked in Freiburg in 1973?
nuclear PIE: some pseudo-researchers would deserve total annihilation
the other side of the PIE: it is strongly forbidden to perform séances in order to learn more about the phonological and morphosyntactical details of Proto-Indo-European
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
But Hawai'ian's t->k is a manifestation of a larger chain shift more precisely (In X-Sampa) /t/>/k/>/?/>...sangi39 wrote: The front velar vs. back velar approach has been suggested as a possible solution which might also more easily explain the merger of traditional *ḱ and *k into *k with some members of this board and the ZBB suggesting that /c/ > /k/ is somewhat unlikely, although others have used Hawai'ian's /t/ > /k/ as a possible counter-example.
Still, it wouldn't explain a decent amount of info, like why doesn't k>? If we were to compare it to Hawai'ian. PIE is crazier than all of us, it seems
Edit: This is 4/8/16... I have no idea what this post is. Maybe I'm saying if /c/ moved back to /k/ then /k/ would've triggered the loss of the laryngeals. 2sketchy4me/
Last edited by qwed117 on 09 Apr 2016 05:00, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
*[óynos kʷékʷlos dʰreǵeti sm̥peh₂ntn̥s ⁞ h₁régʷesu-kʷe bʰendʰeti]
Has someone already translated the One Ring poem into PIE somewheres
Spoiler:
Has someone already translated the One Ring poem into PIE somewheres
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Woops! Completely forgot a gloss
NUM-NOM.SG circle-NOM.SG pull-PRS.3SG COLL=all-ACC.PL darkness-LOC.PL=CNJ tie-PRS.3SG
NUM-NOM.SG circle-NOM.SG pull-PRS.3SG COLL=all-ACC.PL darkness-LOC.PL=CNJ tie-PRS.3SG
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
No, and I'm busy with a couple of tango translations into Atlántika (Caminito, A media luz), but let's try:Lambuzhao wrote: Has someone already translated the One Ring poem into PIE somewheres
óynos kʷékʷlos sm̩péh2ntn̩s dʰréǵeti, h1régʷeskʷe tóns bʰéndʰeti.
kʷékʷlos for 'ring' is very inappropriate, but I don't know what else one might use
sm̩péh2ntn̩s may be just right for an emphatic form of 'all' ('every one of them')
dʰréǵeti can be the SBJV of the verb associated to the root dʰréǵ- only if it inflected as a root present; let's hope so
h1régʷeskʷe using the endingless locative of the singular I saved one syllable
tóns I gave up and added the pronoun
bʰéndʰeti Don Ringe says the root bʰéndʰ- did make a root present (bʰéndʰmi-bʰéndʰsi-bʰéndʰti...bʰn̩dʰénti); bʰéndʰeti is the associated SBJV, remembering that PIE subjunctives were basically future indicatives with additional modal uses I've used two of them for this translation.
In IE studies nobody uses glosses anyway (at most, etymological notes are given and very difficult passages are translated); for the most part everyone is expected to know every language already.Lambuzhao wrote: Woops! Completely forgot a gloss
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
According to Mallory/Adams (The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European...), there are extremely few IE terms for terms for ornaments and they are largely limited to regional isoglosses. They give one word for ring, *ānos (or *h₁eh₂no- with a laryngealized form taken from Wiktionary), but it is limited to a few branches. It is attested in Lat. ānus (and the derived word ānulus), OIr áinne and possibly Old Armenian անուր (anur). Martirosyan thinks that it may be a substrate word.atman wrote:kʷékʷlos for 'ring' is very inappropriate, but I don't know what else one might use]
The Latin word anus has of course been borrowed into English and many other European languages in a more limited sense.
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
One anus to rule them all!
Sure gives new meaning to "draw them all and bind them"
in the throes of painful constipation
Twas cheeses, my Precious! Cheese's what did it!
Sure gives new meaning to "draw them all and bind them"
in the throes of painful constipation
Twas cheeses, my Precious! Cheese's what did it!
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Edit: óynos h₁eh₂nos sm̩péh2ntn̩s dʰréǵeti, h₁régʷeskʷe tóns bʰéndʰeti.
I can roll with that.
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
It is to be expected, imo, as fashion changes are efficient at eliminating old such terms and bringing in new ones. Just like clothing terms are often rather divergent even between closely related languages.Ephraim wrote:According to Mallory/Adams (The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European...), there are extremely few IE terms for terms for ornaments and they are largely limited to regional isoglosses.atman wrote:kʷékʷlos for 'ring' is very inappropriate, but I don't know what else one might use]
if you can't decline it or conjugate it, piss on it.
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
One image to rule them all : Goatse.Lambuzhao wrote:One anus to rule them all!
Sure gives new meaning to "draw them all and bind them"
in the throes of painful constipation
Twas cheeses, my Precious! Cheese's what did it!
Spoiler:
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
Okie-day! My give up! My give up!
http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-conte ... banner.png
Meesa muy muy give up!!!
http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-conte ... banner.png
Meesa muy muy give up!!!
Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European
We've gotten from 3-H to a falcon's speed in distance units. I congratulate the UniverseLambuzhao wrote:Okie-day! My give up! My give up!
http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-conte ... banner.png
Meesa muy muy give up!!!
Spoiler: