Greek based Conscript
Greek based Conscript
Not entirely sure if this is the write place to ask but yesterday I came up with some interesting ideas for a new Indo-European conlang and thought it'd be neat if I created a script for it based on the Greek alphabet. I've never made a conscript before and was wondering what would be a good way to go about modifying letters from their original forms while still giving them a Greek-Latin-Cyrllic vibe?
My ideas right now are using modified forms of Ψ and Ξ to mark the same sounds as in Greek, using Φ Θ Χ for /b t g/ (as the language developed tones à la Punjabi these letters would indicate tones too), using a reborrowed form of Φ for /f/, and using modified forms of Ϝ Ι Ο Υ Ω for /w j o y u/. Do you think the script would still be able to be realistic with those factors in mind?
Also it's not as important at the moment but how would I go about creating fonts for the alphabet? Thanks for any help in advanced
My ideas right now are using modified forms of Ψ and Ξ to mark the same sounds as in Greek, using Φ Θ Χ for /b t g/ (as the language developed tones à la Punjabi these letters would indicate tones too), using a reborrowed form of Φ for /f/, and using modified forms of Ϝ Ι Ο Υ Ω for /w j o y u/. Do you think the script would still be able to be realistic with those factors in mind?
Also it's not as important at the moment but how would I go about creating fonts for the alphabet? Thanks for any help in advanced
Re: Greek based Conscript
So many directions one could take!
You've already mined Digamma; Quoppa, Tsampi, Heta, Sho (Sogdian Greek Alphabet) , and the special Coptic letters might be of use, depending how wide an (Panhellenic) orthographic net you wish to cast.
For example, in addition to using Quoppa and Digamma, my Iveriki uses a symbol / Ր ɾ / based on an older form of Pi (q.v. Attic Acrophonic Numerals).
Also investigate some old Greek cursive/running hands - they have interesting letter formations.
You've already mined Digamma; Quoppa, Tsampi, Heta, Sho (Sogdian Greek Alphabet) , and the special Coptic letters might be of use, depending how wide an (Panhellenic) orthographic net you wish to cast.
For example, in addition to using Quoppa and Digamma, my Iveriki uses a symbol / Ր ɾ / based on an older form of Pi (q.v. Attic Acrophonic Numerals).
Also investigate some old Greek cursive/running hands - they have interesting letter formations.
Last edited by Lambuzhao on 03 Dec 2016 00:38, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Greek based Conscript
You can also investigate/compare/mine/kitbash and Griko's handling of fricatives and affricates not handled in the (Classical) Greek alphabet.
Re: Greek based Conscript
Ooh! I didn't think of that! You could get some cool stuff with that oneLambuzhao wrote:the special Coptic letters might be of use, depending how wide an (Panhellenic) orthographic net you wish to cast.
What sound does / Ր ɾ/ make?Lambuzhao wrote:For example, in addition to using Quoppa and Digamma, my Iveriki uses a symbol / Ր ɾ / based on an older form of Pi (q.v. Attic Acrophonic Numerals).
Another good idea there. Are there any good sites for that besides googling "ancient greek cursive"?Lambuzhao wrote:Also investigate some old Greek cursive/running hands - they have interesting letter formations.
I feel bad for not being familiar with Griko! It sounds vaguely familiar (as in I'm sure I've seen the wiki article on it at some point in my life) but besides that I'm not familiar with it. I tried looking for their orthography but to no avail. Is Griko's handling of fricatives the same as modern Greek's? As Greek has no affricates I'm sure they had to create their own ideas for it right?Lambuzhao wrote:You can also investigate/compare/mine/kitbash and Griko's handling of fricatives and affricates not handled in the (Classical) Greek alphabet.
Re: Greek based Conscript
Indeed. Coptic is the bee's knees.All4Ɇn wrote:Ooh! I didn't think of that! You could get some cool stuff with that oneLambuzhao wrote:the special Coptic letters might be of use, depending how wide an (Panhellenic) orthographic net you wish to cast.
[p]All4Ɇn wrote:What sound does / Ր ɾ/ make?Lambuzhao wrote:For example, in addition to using Quoppa and Digamma, my Iveriki uses a symbol / Ր ɾ / based on an older form of Pi (q.v. Attic Acrophonic Numerals).
It's from an older 'limping scazon' variant of Pi (I think it gave rise eventually to Roman /P/).
You can find it as the representation for '5' /pente/ in Attic Acrophonic Numerals, which quack and waddle somewhat like Roman Numerals, but have a hint of tzatziki all their own.
Hmmmm..... lemme see....All4Ɇn wrote:Another good idea there. Are there any good sites for that besides googling "ancient greek cursive"?Lambuzhao wrote:Also investigate some old Greek cursive/running hands - they have interesting letter formations.
Byzantine is, I think, what I was thinking of:
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/ ... eeklet.asp
Ooh, ooh, ooh! and check out the Ligatures and Incunabula:
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/ ... ekligs.asp
Fun fun fun!
Quite.All4Ɇn wrote:I feel bad for not being familiar with Griko! It sounds vaguely familiar (as in I'm sure I've seen the wiki article on it at some point in my life) but besides that I'm not familiar with it. I tried looking for their orthography but to no avail. Is Griko's handling of fricatives the same as modern Greek's? As Greek has no affricates I'm sure they had to create their own ideas for it right?Lambuzhao wrote:You can also investigate/compare/mine/kitbash and Griko's handling of fricatives and affricates not handled in the (Classical) Greek alphabet.
Research!
(Sorry I'm in teacher-mode and not Summer 'here's a hundred oft-forgotten links to share' mode)
Re: Greek based Conscript
Thanks so much for all the help and suggestions! Of course in handwriting it'll look completely different but as for how it'll appear on computers right now it's looking like:
Αα- /a/
Бϐ- /b/
Гν- /g/
Δᵹ- /d/
Ee- /e/
Ϝϛ̇- /w/
Ζԅ- /z/
Ѳѳ- /d/ (/t/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final)
Ιι̇ι- /i~j/ (ι is a special lowercase form used when representing /j/)
եւцϙк- /k/ (ц is the main lowercase form, ϙ is used before o/υ/ω, к is used word finally)
Λλ- /l/
Мм- /m/
Nⲛ- /n/
Нγ- /ŋ/
Ⲝⲝ- /ks/
Oo- /o/
Πϖ- /p/
Ρρϱ- /r~l/ (ρ is the main lowercase form, ϱ is used word finally)
Ͼσς- /s/ (σ is the main lowercase form, ς is used word finally)
Շт- /t/
Уυ- /y/
Ѻѻ- /b/ (/p/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final. In certain situations the /b/ is silent)
Φф- /f/
Ϫχ- /g/ (/k/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final)
Yψ- /ps/
Ϯϯ- /t͡ʃ/
Ͽͽ- /d͡ʒ/
Ϣω-/u/
Accents:
´- High Tone
`- Low Tone
῀(Greek Circumflex)- Rising & Falling Tone
῾- /h/
ͱ- /h/ added before letter already marked with a tonal accent mark
Right now my only problems are that I don't know how to add Greek accents to non-Greek letters, I don't know how to get the Serbian italic form for т, and I'm not sure what to do about ligatures. I'd absolutely love to have a ton of ligatures, but I don't know how I could include them in the typed orthography
Αα- /a/
Бϐ- /b/
Гν- /g/
Δᵹ- /d/
Ee- /e/
Ϝϛ̇- /w/
Ζԅ- /z/
Ѳѳ- /d/ (/t/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final)
Ιι̇ι- /i~j/ (ι is a special lowercase form used when representing /j/)
եւцϙк- /k/ (ц is the main lowercase form, ϙ is used before o/υ/ω, к is used word finally)
Λλ- /l/
Мм- /m/
Nⲛ- /n/
Нγ- /ŋ/
Ⲝⲝ- /ks/
Oo- /o/
Πϖ- /p/
Ρρϱ- /r~l/ (ρ is the main lowercase form, ϱ is used word finally)
Ͼσς- /s/ (σ is the main lowercase form, ς is used word finally)
Շт- /t/
Уυ- /y/
Ѻѻ- /b/ (/p/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final. In certain situations the /b/ is silent)
Φф- /f/
Ϫχ- /g/ (/k/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final)
Yψ- /ps/
Ϯϯ- /t͡ʃ/
Ͽͽ- /d͡ʒ/
Ϣω-/u/
Accents:
´- High Tone
`- Low Tone
῀(Greek Circumflex)- Rising & Falling Tone
῾- /h/
ͱ- /h/ added before letter already marked with a tonal accent mark
Right now my only problems are that I don't know how to add Greek accents to non-Greek letters, I don't know how to get the Serbian italic form for т, and I'm not sure what to do about ligatures. I'd absolutely love to have a ton of ligatures, but I don't know how I could include them in the typed orthography
Re: Greek based Conscript
I don't think I ever tried copypasta-ing them, but Gentium Plus is a free font in which you can diacritic the bejeezus out of any letter in the font. You can stack accents/diacritics. It includes Roman/Greek extended/Coptic/Cyrillic, among other usual suspects. It's not a bad little serif font
(you'd have to prolly screencaptcha your utterances/texts, though, for full orthographic yumth)
As for ligatures, the free go-to font for that is Avdira (which I always read as 'Andira'... ).
I
its look/aesthetic/curves. It has , Cyrillic, , a goodly serviceable set of Ligatures including the funky, long-handled kickass lowercase delta, Attic Acrophonic numerals, and other yummy monetary/weight/measure symbols. And some other goodies I cannot recall...
I use it for my Iveriki when I screencaptcha.
And, every time I type with it, I hear this song in my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb9yAGROXCk
I prolly told you too much.
Oh yeah, did I mention that it's free. Which only adds to the whole triple chocolate fudge cakeyness of the whole deal.
(you'd have to prolly screencaptcha your utterances/texts, though, for full orthographic yumth)
As for ligatures, the free go-to font for that is Avdira (which I always read as 'Andira'... ).
I
its look/aesthetic/curves. It has , Cyrillic, , a goodly serviceable set of Ligatures including the funky, long-handled kickass lowercase delta, Attic Acrophonic numerals, and other yummy monetary/weight/measure symbols. And some other goodies I cannot recall...
I use it for my Iveriki when I screencaptcha.
And, every time I type with it, I hear this song in my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb9yAGROXCk
I prolly told you too much.
Oh yeah, did I mention that it's free. Which only adds to the whole triple chocolate fudge cakeyness of the whole deal.
Re: Greek based Conscript
Thanks for the help! I downloaded Avdira . Where do I find all of the ligatures the font can support?
Also what do you think of the alphabet I've made so far?
Also what do you think of the alphabet I've made so far?
Re: Greek based Conscript
What kind of 'puter do you have?
If you have a PC/Dell/Windows clone, you can see them all in the 'Character Map'
(accessed from the Command box)
If you have a MAC, there's a trick I don't fully understand, that I did on my Macbook Pro last week, that has it up in my upper tool ribbon-thingie. Hmmmm.... mebbe I can find the link that I used-
Access Mac Character Viewer
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201586
Sorry I show so little love for MACs. I've been so brainwashed over the years by Bill Gates' warlockery.
If you have a Linux or other 'puter, I dunno.
Mebbe this-
http://fsymbols.com/character-maps/linux/
ЄϒТϒХН
If you have a PC/Dell/Windows clone, you can see them all in the 'Character Map'
(accessed from the Command box)
If you have a MAC, there's a trick I don't fully understand, that I did on my Macbook Pro last week, that has it up in my upper tool ribbon-thingie. Hmmmm.... mebbe I can find the link that I used-
Access Mac Character Viewer
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201586
Sorry I show so little love for MACs. I've been so brainwashed over the years by Bill Gates' warlockery.
If you have a Linux or other 'puter, I dunno.
Mebbe this-
http://fsymbols.com/character-maps/linux/
ЄϒТϒХН
Re: Greek based Conscript
All4Ɇn wrote: Also what do you think of the alphabet I've made so far?
Πολὺ ϰαλὰ!
Whoops! maybe I should write -
ϖολὺ цαλὰ !
Re: Greek based Conscript
I was able to find what I believe to be it through this. I'm not too sure if it has everything though because I don't see that many digraphs including the delta you mentioned earlierLambuzhao wrote:If you have a MAC, there's a trick I don't fully understand, that I did on my Macbook Pro last week, that has it up in my upper tool ribbon-thingie. Hmmmm.... mebbe I can find the link that I used-
Access Mac Character Viewer
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201586
I'm the sole member of the Apple cult in my family so I know how you're feelingLambuzhao wrote:Sorry I show so little love for MACs. I've been so brainwashed over the years by Bill Gates' warlockery.
Thanks! Having just discovered Anatolian hieroglyphs I'm contemplating whether or not to throw in a few of those. Not sure if that'd be realistic thoughLambuzhao wrote:ϖολὺ цαλὰ !
Re: Greek based Conscript
Huh?Lambuzhao wrote:ЄϒТϒХН
Re: Greek based Conscript
Hakuna mutata. There's a subdirectory where you can click on/off what subsets of the symbols/emojis you want visible: Extended Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, Phonetic, Chinese Hanzi, Dingbats, Mathematical, Divination, etc.All4Ɇn wrote:I was able to find what I believe to be it through this. I'm not too sure if it has everything though because I don't see that many digraphs including the delta you mentioned earlierLambuzhao wrote:If you have a MAC, there's a trick I don't fully understand, that I did on my Macbook Pro last week, that has it up in my upper tool ribbon-thingie. Hmmmm.... mebbe I can find the link that I used-
Access Mac Character Viewer
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201586
I think those ligatures are treated at Dingbats or Private Use subset.
Indeed.I'm the sole member of the Apple cult in my family so I know how you're feelingLambuzhao wrote:Sorry I show so little love for MACs. I've been so brainwashed over the years by Bill Gates' warlockery.
Hmmm... I'd steer towards exploring Linear B for any antiquarian litterary holdovers.Thanks! Having just discovered Anatolian hieroglyphs I'm contemplating whether or not to throw in a few of those. Not sure if that'd be realistic thoughLambuzhao wrote:ϖολὺ цαλὰ !
Yet, why not?
Maybe your conlang is some kind of Trojan Greek ?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... on.svg.png
Dunno how up you are on Ionian, Aeolic, Doric dialects, though.
Re: Greek based Conscript
Whoops. I meantAll4Ɇn wrote:Huh?Lambuzhao wrote:ЄϒТϒХН
ЄϒТϒХIA!
[ey.ty.'xi.a]
good=fortune-NOM.SG
Or mebbe
ЄϒТϒХЄIΣ!
[ey.'ty.xe:s]
have.good.luck<PRS>2SG
ooooh, this-
ἴθι εὐτυχής!
['i.θi ey.ty.'xɛ:s]
go<IMPTV>2SG lucky-NOM.SG
https://books.google.com/books?id=2AQsA ... in&f=false
Re: Greek based Conscript
Or maybe this
ТϒХЄIN APIΣTON!
http://artcondition.gr/wp-content/uploa ... /05/34.jpg
IMHO This whiffs of 'translationese to sell possibly fake antiquities'
ТϒХЄIN APIΣTON!
http://artcondition.gr/wp-content/uploa ... /05/34.jpg
IMHO This whiffs of 'translationese to sell possibly fake antiquities'
Last edited by Lambuzhao on 04 Dec 2016 14:08, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Greek based Conscript
Wow.
Or even this:
ἐπ' ἀγαθῷ!
[e.pa.ga.'θo:j]
http://168.100.10.111/05_detail/ST130R.htm
All mean "Good Luck"
Or even this:
ἐπ' ἀγαθῷ!
[e.pa.ga.'θo:j]
http://168.100.10.111/05_detail/ST130R.htm
All mean "Good Luck"
Re: Greek based Conscript
I found this!!! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ultra-c ... ls=1&mt=12Lambuzhao wrote:Hakuna mutata. There's a subdirectory where you can click on/off what subsets of the symbols/emojis you want visible: Extended Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, Phonetic, Chinese Hanzi, Dingbats, Mathematical, Divination, etc.
I think those ligatures are treated at Dingbats or Private Use subset.
Most of the ligatures my computer can't treat as typable but I can copy all of them as pictures. Would take some work but still possible
Well I wasn't thinking they'd be exactly like Anatolian hieroglyphs. Just that maybe some of the most frequently used nouns had forms that are often written in hieroglyphs instead of lettersLambuzhao wrote:Hmmm... I'd steer towards exploring Linear B for any antiquarian litterary holdovers.
Yet, why not?
Maybe your conlang is some kind of Trojan Greek ?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... on.svg.png
Dunno how up you are on Ionian, Aeolic, Doric dialects, though.
Re: Greek based Conscript
Those MACs and their apps!All4Ɇn wrote:I found this!!! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ultra-c ... ls=1&mt=12Lambuzhao wrote:Hakuna mutata. There's a subdirectory where you can click on/off what subsets of the symbols/emojis you want visible: Extended Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, Phonetic, Chinese Hanzi, Dingbats, Mathematical, Divination, etc.
I think those ligatures are treated at Dingbats or Private Use subset.
whaaaaaaa‽‽‽‽Most of the ligatures my computer can't treat as typable but I can copy all of them as pictures. Would take some work but still possible
That's unfortunate.
After all, MACs are supposed to be more flexible than a Klein Bottle that just graduated from 5-Dimensional Yoga School.
Well, insofar as autochthonous orthographic developments are concerned:Well I wasn't thinking they'd be exactly like Anatolian hieroglyphs. Just that maybe some of the most frequently used nouns had forms that are often written in hieroglyphs instead of letters
1) Linear B does Syllabary and ideograms (not unlike ). There are a number of ideograms for things like royalty, precious metals, foodstuffs, animals, and other merch.
2) The Byzantine Ligatures have some condensed forms for entire words.
Two avenues worth exploring!
Re: Greek based Conscript
Here's a sample sentence so far . Given that it's by far the most accessible system that looks anything like it, I suppose I'll be using Egyptian hieroglyphs and the more straight forward Linear B logograms until I can find something similar.
Кιυѻⲛ νeιeγ ԅeρoς
Kyǘn geyeng zeros.
I heard the crane's call.
I tried posting a hieroglyph for crane but for some reason it wouldn't work. Does this forum not support hieroglyphics?
Кιυѻⲛ νeιeγ ԅeρoς
Kyǘn geyeng zeros.
I heard the crane's call.
I tried posting a hieroglyph for crane but for some reason it wouldn't work. Does this forum not support hieroglyphics?