My previous posts:
Micamo wrote:There are 4 basic nominalizers: The nominative nominalizer, the activity nominalizer, the associative nominalizer, and the negative nominalizer. The accusative nominalizer is a special case that will be discussed in a bit.DesEsseintes wrote:However, as your nominalisers seem to be circumfixing and declined for case (if I'm reading the glosses at all correctly), could you give us more info on how they work? What is the negative nominaliser?
The nominative nominalizer suffix -ne has very similar semantics to the suffix -er or -or in english:
ayakane - One who sings, singer.
The activity nominalizer refers to the activity in general and is quite similar to the gerund -ing in english:
ayakari - Singing
The associative nominalizer -ho has no simple english equivalent: It's used to denote times, places, and instruments associated with the act.
ayakaho - The time we sing/The place we sing/The thing we use for singing. (Which meaning is intended must be inferred from context, and can occasionally be ambiguous)
The negative nominalizer -ni is a negated form of the activity nominalizer, and has special grammatical status:
ayakani - Not singing
Finite verbs in Haneko cannot be negated. Expressing a negated verb means using the negative nominalizer with it, and making it the complement of a copular clause:
I didn't kill him.
Finite verb agreement in Haneko is hierarchical: Verbs only agree with either the agent or the patient argument, depending on which one is higher in the hierarchy of 1 > 2 > 3.
I see you.
You see me.
You see her.
She sees you.
moko awa ana
moko 0-awa ana
3f 1p.A-sense 1p
We see her.
If both arguments are third person, the verb takes a suffix that agrees with the gender (and number) of the agent:
She sees him.
He sees her.
Intransitive verbs only take the P prefixes, never the A prefixes:
I am singing.
You are singing.
She is singing.
The exception to this is verbs that are detransitivized with the reflexivizer t(i)-, which only take the A prefixes:
I cut off my arm.
Now, the standard nominalized verbs (even transitive ones) are just like intransitive verbs in that they normally only take the P prefixes, never the A prefixes:
ewe wa tomo itiri
ewe wa tomo iti-ri
2 ERG NAME kill-ACT.NMLZ
Your killing of Tomo.
Unless they take the reflexivizer morphology:
The place/time/instrument with which I will kill myself
Now, the accusative nominalizer i(n)- is a special case, for two reasons. First, it's a further derivation of a nominalized verb, not a nominalization morpheme in its own right, so it can occur with the activity nominalizer or the negative nominalizer. Second, like the reflexive, it causes the verb to take only the A prefixes:
The crimes I have committed (lit. "The evil I have made")
The basic constituent order in main clauses in Haneko is OVS:Am I right that the predicate always comes first in Haneko?
koroko itika tomo
koroko iti-ko-a tomo
NAME kill-WIT.REC-SG.M NAME
Tomo killed Koroko.
The basic order in intransitive clauses is VS:
ayakai araya kore!
ayaka-i araya kore
sing-SG.F NAME beautiful
Araya is singing beautifully!
It's possible to front the subject in a transitive clause by marking it in ergative case, making the sentence SOV:
mikamo wa hiti hanako
mikamo wa hiti ha-na-ko
NAME ERG hug 2.O-AUX-WIT.REC
Micamo hugged you
(Intransitive subjects can still be fronted but don't require the ergative particle.)
The exception is in nominalized clauses, where SOV is the only order possible, and the agent (if any is present) of a transitive nominalized clause must have the ergative particle:
ewe wa mikamo hitiri
ewe wa mikamo hiti-ri
2 ERG NAME hug-ACT.NMLZ
Your hugging of Micamo
Yeeeeah I'm not very good at getting threads written. A better way might be to just ask me questions about the lang and letting me answer them, I'm much better at doing that. Hmm...It would be great to see that Haneko thread revived.
Micamo wrote:It's used for topicalization, as well as for the agent in transitive nominalized clauses:DesEsseintes wrote:The Haneko agreement system is really fun! I guess there is rarely a need to use the first person pronoun since there will always be 1st person agreement if there is a 1s argument. But I'm guessing there is one for topicalisation, etc.?
wi wa initiripe
wi wa in-iti-ri-pe
1s ERG ACC.NMLZ-kill-ACT.NMLZ-PST
The one I killed.
Yes: The verb is the only obligatory element in the sentence.Just how pro-drop is Haneko? Could I just say mawa and leave it up to context who saw me?
The complete verb template in Haneko is as follows:What other kind of verb marking is there? TAM? I see what I believe are evidentials(?)
Haneko has "type 2" IN, where a closed class of obligatorially possessed nouns (mostly body part nouns) can be incorporated into the verb, interpreted as being possessed by the patient (or the agent, in the case of reflexive verbs).
Haneko also allows the incorporation of a small number of verb roots that give additional meaning to the verb in the "Dependent Root" slot. Some of these roots are currently in the process of grammaticalization to some degree:
hiti manakaki neke
hiti ma-na-kaki neke
hug 1s.O-AUX-come 3m
He is coming to hug me OR He will hug me.
Haneko has a simple evidential system with three terms: Witness, Nonwitness, and Hearsay. Witness and Nonwitness are expressed by the choice of tense morpheme in the past tense (note that this also changes the position of the tense marker). There are four tenses: Nonpast, Immediate Past (a few minutes ago), Recent Past (anything from a few minutes ago up to yesterday morning), and Remote Past (anything before that). (I'm thinking of dumping the immediate category.) The witness/nonwitness distinction is neutralized in the nonpast tense. Hearsay can be expressed by a clitic =hi which attaches to the end of the postverbal subject NP (if there is one) or to the end of the VP (if there isn't), in combination with the nonpast tense or a nonwitness tense.
Tomo went there and killed him/her/it, I heard
Moods are more up in the air: There's a dubitative affix -mo
awari ko enenomahi
awari ko ene-no-mo-a=hi
awari all eat_meat-NWIT.REC-DUB-SG.M=HSY
He allegedly ate all the awari meat. (A brightly colored bird like a large, flightless parrot, considered a delicacy).
And three imperative forms, venitive imperative (come here and do it!), allative imperative (go there and do it!), and stative imperative (do it!). Note that the 2nd-person agreement forms can't be used with the imperative forms:
Come here and hug me!
moko hiti nata!
moko hiti na-ta
3f hug AUX-ALL.IMP
Go there and hug her!
I'm not sure how I want to handle hortatives, or if I'll add any other mood affixes.
You're killing me.
Yes, the correct version of this would be hiti mana ewe. The auxiliary is required for morphological reasons: Loaned verbs in Haneko are unable to take finite verb inflections directly and must have an auxiliary to bear the inflections for them. They can, however, take nominalization morphology without assistance. The Haneko verb hiti "hug" comes from Esseran siit "carry".Mahiti ewe.
You're hugging me.
(correct epenthetic vowel?)
(Or do I need to use the auxiliary na in the second example? If so, why?)
Done.DesEsseintes wrote:Suggestion: Why don't you copy-paste the above into the Haneko thread, and I (and whoever else wants to) can continue asking you questions about the language there. Otherwise, we're sort of off-topic in this thread, aren't we? Besides, that would get all the info on Haneko in one place for reference. I was thinking of doing it myself, but I don't want to be presumptuous.
A little: I basically make Esseran up as I go along when I want to explain something in Haneko as being an Esseran loan or arising due to Esseran influence. It's a VOS language with case prefixes and a topic-comment system. If anyone wants to know anything specific (I can provide translations and glosses but note that they're highly subject to change) I'd be happy to oblige.What do we know about Esseran?
Yes: Mithara used to be a dragonlanguage but now it's spoken by humans.Are all these langs spoken by humans? I remember reading somewhere that you're into Dragons.