Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

DesEsseintes wrote:ɣ
Aesthetically, that'd be my choice. But in terms of commonality and ease of typing/character compatibility, it seems as though g should be a forerunner.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:Left to my own devices, I would never have come up with Kanejam's v. Mind. Blown. [:P]
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by QuantumWraith »

I know it's attested, but using v for a velar can be unintuitive to many readers. especially me! If that's something you wanna avoid, perhaps do v for /w/ and w for /ɰ/?
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

QuantumWraith wrote:I know it's attested, but using v for a velar can be unintuitive to many readers. especially me! If that's something you wanna avoid, perhaps do v for /w/ and w for /ɰ/?
Oooh, that could be nice.

Actually I can't really say I have anything against any of the options.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Tiny post.

I've come up with two personal endings for intransitive verbs. These are used in polite speech. The variants are used after vowels and consonants respectively.

1s -nınee/-enee
2s -nuweeł/-oweeł

As a little glimpse of what I'm going for as regards morphology, here's a glossed sample:

Neenfúyòòsásíınuweeł?
neenı-fú-yòòs-ásíı-nuweeł
Q-N.IRR-good-APPL-2s.POL

Would that be alright with you?
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

I'm going to be practical and use g for the romanisation of /ɰ/. I'm kind of disappointed in myself for doing this after all the good ideas offered by other CBBers in this thread. [:|]
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology

Post by DesEsseintes »

It's been a few weeks since I started this thread and nothing much has happened. I've got quite a few ideas for this lang, but I don't think the Arapaho phonology was doing it for me. Much as I love the look of Arapaho, I don't seem to be able to work with it very well.

I have therefore decided to redo the phonology by incorporating some new ideas I've had.

New Phonology Sketch

In this post, I'm only going to deal with the consonants. The consonant inventory has become a bit smaller and more symmetrical.

Although I'm not going to deal with the vowels at this point, it's worth bearing in mind that there will be front rounded vowels, as they enter into some of the allophony below.

"Deep" Consonant Inventory

There are 14 or 15 underlying consonant phonemes.

|n ŋ|
|t t͡s t͡ɬ k ʔ|
|θ s ɬ x h|
|(w) j~ɥ ɰ|

I believe |w ɰ| may be one phoneme.

Allophony

So far I've got
• |ŋ k x| are /m b ɸ/ before /u y/
• |ŋw kw xw| are /m b ɸ/ before /i/
• |ŋ k x| are [ɲ] /t͡ʃ ʃ/ before /j/
• |t͡s s| are /t͡ʃ ʃ/ before /y j/

I'm wondering whether to reduce the inventory further by finding more allophonic relationships between the phonemes I've got. Another idea would be to remove the glottals.
I'm not sure why I'm so intent on having a small inventory. I make this mistake every time and regret it later... but it is elegant.

Surface Consonant Inventory

Many of the allophony rules above apply at the root level, so we wind up with the following inventory, shown here with my provisional ideas for the romanisation:

/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
/b t t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k ʔ/ b t ts tł ch k '
/ɸ θ s ɬ ʃ x h/ f þ s ł sh x h
/w j~ɥ ɰ/ w y ɣ

Note that /ɲ/ is missing. It is not phonemic in root morphemes and only occurs as a realisation of /nj ŋj/. Therefore, it will simply be written ny.

Voiced Consonants?

- I'm wondering whether to add /ð z l ʒ/ either at the phonemic or phonetic level. They might be quite fun with the front rounded vowels.

So, there have been quite a few changes. I hope to post the new vowels soon.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology

Post by Dezinaa »

I like it. Especially the velars becoming bilabials.

It would be interesting having voicing distinction is fricatives but not in plosives.

DesEsseintes wrote:/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
[:D]
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology

Post by shimobaatar »

Dezinaa wrote:I like it. Especially the velars becoming bilabials.

It would be interesting having voicing distinction is fricatives but not in plosives.
[+1]
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology

Post by DesEsseintes »

Dezinaa wrote:I like it. Especially the velars becoming bilabials. It would be interesting having voicing distinction is fricatives but not in plosives.
Thanks. [:)] And I'm going for the voicing distinction. See below.
Dezinaa wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
[:D]
Yeah. I loved the look of ƞ in your ʼiinìm and so adopted it.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology

Post by DesEsseintes »

New Phonology - Part 2

Decision time!

Consonants

I've decided to include the voiced fricatives. The surface phoneme inventory is therefore like this:

/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
/b t t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k ʔ/ b t ts tł ch k '
/ɸ θ s ɬ ʃ x h/ f þ s ł sh x h
/w ð z l ʒ j~ɥ ɰ/ w đ z l zh y ɣ

Vowels

I promised to make a decision as regards the new vowel inventory before the day is out, so here it is.

For those of you who followed the voting going on over in the Yay/Nay thread, I went for option "new B". One day though I'll make a lang with option D.

Enough preamble. Here are the vowels.

Short monophthongs

/i y ɨ~ɯ u/ ı ų ɯ u
/ɛ œ ɔ/ e ǫ o
/ɑ/ a
- high short monophthongs are often realised lax [ɪ ʏ ɨ ʊ]

Long monophthongs

/iː yː ɯː uː/ ıı ųų ɯɯ uu
/ɛː œː ɔː/ ee ǫǫ oo
/ɑː/ aa

Short diphthongs

/eɪ̯ øʏ̯ oʊ̯/ eı ǫų ou
/aɪ̯ ɑɯ̯̽ ɑʊ̯/ aı aɯ au

Long diphthongs

/iːɛ yːɛ ɯːɑ uːɑ/ ııe ųųe ɯɯa uua
/iːœ yːœ ɯːɔ uːɔ/ ııǫ ųųǫ ɯɯo uuo
/ɛɪ̯ː œʏ̯ː ɔʊ̯ː/ eeı ǫǫų oou (but eey ǫǫy oow word-finally)
/aɪ̯ː ɑɯ̯̽ː ɑʊ̯ː/ aaı aaɯ aau (but aay aaɣ aaw word-finally
- /aɪ̯ː ɑʊ̯ː/ are probably rare

Triphthongs
/eɪ̯ɛ øʏ̯ɛ oʊ̯a/ eıe ǫųe oua
/eɪ̯œ øʏ̯œ oʊ̯ɔ/ eıǫ ǫųǫ ouo

Notes:
- The structure of the system is roughly the same as in the original system, but with the added dimensions of front rounded vowels and back unrounded vowels
- I think back unrounded vowels will have a relatively limited distribution
- I'm considering adding the long diphthongs /eiː øyː ɤɯː ouː/ eıı ǫųų aɯɯ ouu but I might have /ɤɯː/ mysteriously missing

The next post should be on glides and how they interact with surrounding phonemes. Or perhaps it will be sth completely different.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Vowels!

Post by DesEsseintes »

Phonotactics - Ideas

Here are some ideas I have so far for phonotactics.

The basic syllabic structure is CV(R(ː))

C is any consonant, and is required except word-initially (probably; not entirely decided yet).
V can be any of the long or short monophthongs, diphthongs and triphthongs listed in the vowels section above.
R is optional and is any of /n ɬ h/. All can also occur geminate in this position except word-finally.

/n/ assimilates to the PoA of the following consonant.

The realisation of /h/ is more complex.
- After a [-high] vowel /h/ is realised as [h]
- After a high vowel or diphthong ending in a high vowel and before a stop or affricate, /h/ is realised as the fricative corresponding to the PoA of the following consonant. Using e and ı as examples of a non-high and high vowel, we get the following possible vowel+cluster combos:
eh' ehh' ıh' ıhh'
ehk ehhk ıxk ıxxk
ehch ehhch ıshch ısshch
ehtł ehhtł ıshtł ısshtł
ehts ehhts ısts ıssts
eht ehht ıþt ıþþt
ehb ehhb ıfb ıffb


Note how is considered to have the same PoA as ch.

I like the clusters this yields, especially some of the weirder one like ffb and sshtł.

I want geminate fricatives to be possible as well. I'm not sure yet whether they are a result of /h/+fricative sequences or their own thing.

Furthermore, /x/ can be form a cluster as the final element after any consonant or cluster. So sequences such as h'x nnchx xkx are possible.

Here are some sample words to demonstrate some of the possibilities.

yííxke
yųsshchųųmųt
ahhtsá
ehhteıe
yíþþtǫų'ųsxų
ƞwèèìstse
mǫųffbíínıþ


It's looking a bit weird, but I think I like it.

I'm not sure how the voiced fricatives fit in with all this. They're in danger of being dropped again, I'm afraid.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:yííxke
Everything looks good so far, but I love this word especially.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact

Post by DesEsseintes »

shimobaatar wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:yííxke
Everything looks good so far, but I love this word especially.
What should it mean? I think it's a common noun.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:yííxke
Everything looks good so far, but I love this word especially.
What should it mean? I think it's a common noun.
Maybe some sort of small animal that the speakers would see regularly? But not domesticated. Maybe something squirrel-like?

By the way, what does the NP: Phonotactics in the thread title mean? I've seen some other thread titles doing something similar, and I assumed it stood for "noun phrase", but that doesn't make sense in the context of phonotactics.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact

Post by Dezinaa »

shimobaatar wrote:By the way, what does the NP: Phonotactics in the thread title mean? I've seen some other thread titles doing something similar, and I assumed it stood for "noun phrase", but that doesn't make sense in the context of phonotactics.
I thought it means "now playing," but probably not. [:|]
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact

Post by DesEsseintes »

shimobaatar wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:yííxke
Everything looks good so far, but I love this word especially.
What should it mean? I think it's a common noun.
Maybe some sort of small animal that the speakers would see regularly? But not domesticated. Maybe something squirrel-like?
yííxke n coyote
By the way, what does the NP: Phonotactics in the thread title mean? I've seen some other thread titles doing something similar, and I assumed it stood for "noun phrase", but that doesn't make sense in the context of phonotactics.
OP = opening post
NP = new post

Or that's what I think it means. [:P]
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact

Post by shimobaatar »

[+1] to "coyote".

"new post" and "now playing" both sound fitting to me.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact

Post by DesEsseintes »

Well, DesEsseintes. You've made a right mess of this thread... It's time to tidy things up a bit and turn over a new leaf.
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