Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10371
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:(i.e. vowels that carry neither high nor low tone)
DesEsseintes wrote:(i.e. long vowels that carry neither high, low nor falling tone)
How would a vowel without tone be written? I thought unmarked vowels were low tone?

Also, would the second category exclude long vowels with rising tones as well as ones without tone?

I have a feeling I'm misinterpreting something.
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

I meant to reply to this ages ago... or at least at an earlier point in the last 36 hours or so.

Basically an unmarked vowel has "neutral" tone which is probably realised mid-to-low. Unaccented syllables generally carry neutral tone.

Accented syllables can carry high tone ú or low tone ù (I realise now that I termed this "extra low" in my original description, so it's my bad). Long vowels can also have a falling contour úu, but there is probably no rising contour. If there were, it would be considered accented.

I'm not entirely decided on this though. I may scrap the low tone if I don't figure out why it's there.

Does that make more sense now?
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10371
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

Ah, OK. I think I've got it. [:)]
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

My ideas for the Hííenununóóoþa verb template have progressed somewhat. I'm now roughly thinking along these lines:

SAP-(REV)-PREVERB-REV-VERB-IN-FINAL-POLARITY-PERSON.NUMBER

SAP refers to marking of first and second person. There will be at least four of these: 1s, 1p, 12, 2

REV is a reversive marker that reverses the meaning of a verb or preverb. Hence the two possible placements within the template. Two reversives cannot cooccur.

PREVERB is going to be a huge jumble of all the things I decide to have in the way of modality, instrumentals, and whatever.

IN is an incorporated noun, if any. I'm going to force myself to place it after the verb root.

FINAL is right out of Algonquian; a marker for the valency of the verb along with the noun class and/or plurality of the subject of an intransitive verb or the object of an intransitive verb.

POLARITY is where the negative goes. There will also be an affirmative, and I may choose to have mood markers go here too, but then this slot will be split in two.

PERSON.NUMBER is an ending which shows the number of the subject. These endings differ for different persons so I've put PERSON as part of this slot.

Some of these slots may be expandable, and require further subdivisions.

I was going to put this in the accomplishments thread, but let's just put it in the proper thread. [:)]
Last edited by DesEsseintes on 01 May 2015 18:09, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

The Three-Vowel System

After mulling over this for a while now, I have decided to reduce the vowel inventory of Hííenununóóoþa to just three phonemic vowels.

Short Monophthongs

/e i o/ e ı o

Long Monophthongs

/eː iː oː/ ee ıı oo

Diphthongs

/eɪ̯ oɪ̯/ eı oı


Vowel Quality

As the vowel inventory is very small, I have chosen to represent the phonemes using the general values /e i o/. Actual realisations are generally as follows.

/i iː/ - High Front Vowel

/i/ is often [ɪ] when unstressed and/or in a closed syllable. Long /iː/ is normally cardinal [iː].

After /t͡ʃ ʃ/, /i iː/ are often pronounced lax and somewhat backed [ɪ~ɨ ɪː~ɨː]. Unaccented short /i/ may even be realised as a schwa [ə] - this is especially true of epenthetic /i/ which tends to almost disappear if unaccented.

/e eː/ - Non-High Front Vowel

/e eː/ are never higher than true mid, i.e. they are never realised high-mid. True mid realisations are especially common after /t͡ʃ ʃ/.

[ɛ ɛː] realisations are more common after other consonants, but do not approach [æ] except in the case of vowel breaking.

/o oː/ - Back Rounded Vowel

/o oː/ also tend to be realised lower than the cardinal values and become [ɔ ɔː] although true mid realisations also occur, especially word-finally and after /t͡ʃ ʃ/.

/eɪ̯/ - Unrounded Diphthong

This diphthong is relatively stable, although the off-glide may be somewhat difficult to discern in an unstressed syllable before a geminate coda /sː ɬː hː/

/oɪ̯/ - Rounded Diphthong

This diphthong tends to front to [øʏ̯] when unstressed. The off-glide may be difficult to discern in an unstressed syllable before a geminate coda /sː ɬː hː/, resulting in [ø] or even [ʏ].

Vowel Breaking

Here are the updated rules for vowel breaking. The phenomenon was already outlined earlier, so I won't repeat myself here.

i ɛ o eɪ̯ oɪ̯ → ɪ æ ɒ e(ɪ̯) ø(ʏ̯) / C_K
i ɛ o eɪ̯ oɪ̯ → jɪ jæ wɒ e(ɪ̯) ø(ʏ̯) / #_K, V_K
i ɛ o eɪ̯ oɪ̯ → jɘ jɐ wɐ e(ɪ̯) wʏ / VV_K

K represents any consonant cluster starting in a stop, affricate or geminate fricative

Other aspects of the phonology (version 3.0) remain intact.
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Noun Plural Sketches

Here are some jumbled ideas I have for plurals in Hííenununóóoþa. These have not been worked into a coherent system, so peruse at your own risk.

Plural Suffixes

There will be several different plural suffixes in Hííenununóóoþa. Animate and inanimate nouns will use different suffixes, and if I ever manage to come up with a noun class system that pleaseth mine eyes, there will be different plurals for the different classes. I'm aiming for the level of irregularity found in the plurals of Cheyenne nouns, which are extremely beautiful.

Unfortunately, I have only decided on a single ending so far: -tseh. This ending may have allomorphs in -eh -weh -leh -seh.

Other endings I'm considering are -toht -soht -tsıt -sıt and others.

Stem Reduction

I want Hííenununóóoþa nouns to be frequently reduced in their surface forms.

Stem-final h ł n s þ f frequently drop when they occur word-finally, i.e. without a suffix. The preceding vowel may also be affected.

As an example, the word stem *ótsetseł means hare (or similar), but this surfaces as ótsetse in the singular.

When the plural ending -tseh is added, the resulting form is:

ótsetseł + tsehótsetsełłtseh

Another example:

òòłe (stem *oołéh) → oołéhhtseh

Here we witness another phenomenon. When an accented stem-final syllable is reduced, the accent moves onto the preceding syllable and - at least in this case - results in a low tone. (Low tone may be restricted to heavy syllables - this is still unclear.)

The reason for the gemination of ł and h is not fully understood, but at the moment I'm toying with the idea that the sounds undergo gemination when located an even number of syllables after the accented syllable.

Compare ííxke - coyote (or similar) from the stem ííxkeıs:

ííxkeıs + tsehííxkeıstseh (no gemination)

Metathesising Nouns

Some nouns with stems ending in h ł n s undergo metathesis rather than elision.

ółe (stem óeıł) → óeıłtseh

síse (stem síeıs) → síeıstseh

I might choose to use conflated endings here and change these plurals to óeıłłeh and síeısseh, respectively.

That's it for now, I guess. This may not seem much, but these forms are the first ones I'm relatively pleased with. Hopefully, I'll be able to add to this soon.

I'm going to cross out that hastily scribbled post on the verb template above, as it's obsolete.

The phonology has also undergone yet another revision, but this time it was pretty minor. I might make a post about it, or perhaps it's unnecessary. An outline of the changes was posted in the random phonologies thread here.

Feedback would be welcome as always!
Edit: I've removed the word "Speedlang" from the thread title, as this is now anything but a speedlang... :roll:
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10371
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:There will be several different plural suffixes in Hííenununóóoþa. Animate and inanimate nouns will use different suffixes, and if I ever manage to come up with a noun class system that pleaseth mine eyes, there will be different plurals for the different classes. I'm aiming for the level of irregularity found in the plurals of Cheyenne nouns, which are extremely beautiful.
What do you mean about noun class and such? Would such a system replace the animacy distinction?

Also, are plurals in Cheyenne extremely irregular, or just irregular enough that it's notable, but not cumbersome?
DesEsseintes wrote:Unfortunately, I have only decided on a single ending so far: -tseh. This ending may have allomorphs in -eh -weh -leh -seh.
What kinds of situations would cause these allomorphs to appear?
DesEsseintes wrote:Other endings I'm considering are -toht -soht -tsıt -sıt and others.
-tsıt and -sıt are my favorites of the four, for whatever reason, if you're looking for that kind of input.
DesEsseintes wrote:I want Hííenununóóoþa nouns to be frequently reduced in their surface forms.

Stem-final h ł n s þ f frequently drop when they occur word-finally, i.e. without a suffix. The preceding vowel may also be affected.

As an example, the word stem *ótsetseł means hare (or similar), but this surfaces as ótsetse in the singular.

When the plural ending -tseh is added, the resulting form is:

ótsetseł + tsehótsetsełłtseh
Lovely!
DesEsseintes wrote:Here we witness another phenomenon. When an accented stem-final syllable is reduced, the accent moves onto the preceding syllable and - at least in this case - results in a low tone. (Low tone may be restricted to heavy syllables - this is still unclear.)
You mention above that the vowel preceding a dropped ending may also be affected… is this what you were referring to?

Also, how would you define a heavy syllable (or was that the part that's still unclear)?
DesEsseintes wrote:The reason for the gemination of ł and h is not fully understood, but at the moment I'm toying with the idea that the sounds undergo gemination when located an even number of syllables after the accented syllable.

Compare ííxke - coyote (or similar) from the stem ííxkeıs:

ííxkeıs + tsehííxkeıstseh (no gemination)
I'm rather tired at the moment, so the answer might be quite obvious, but I'm confused about this part.

In the example of ííxkeıstseh, <x> (an allophone of <h>, unless I'm remembering completely wrong) isn't geminated because, depending on how you break down the word, it's either part of the accented syllable, or an odd number of syllables (just one) after it (I'd guess it's part of it, but I could be wrong). In ótsetsełłtseh, <ł> is geminated because it occurs two syllables (an even number) after the accented syllable.

However, in oołéhhtseh, the <h> is either part of the accented syllable, or the syllable directly after it (again, I'd guess part of it, but I can't be sure). Is this part of the fact that this kind of gemination isn't fully understood, or am I missing something?
DesEsseintes wrote:ółe (stem óeıł) → óeıłtseh
Meaning "eye", perhaps? :fra:

I'd suggest "six" for the word below it, but that would be more of a stretch. :esp:
DesEsseintes wrote:Some nouns with stems ending in h ł n s undergo metathesis rather than elision.
So one would expect those two words to surface as óeı and síeı in the singular if not for this? What makes them different? The fact that their final stem consonants are preceded by two vowels or more instead of one?
DesEsseintes wrote:I might choose to use conflated endings here and change these plurals to óeıłłeh and síeısseh, respectively.
I like the idea of changing up the endings a little here. [+1]
DesEsseintes wrote:That's it for now, I guess. This may not seem much, but these forms are the first ones I'm relatively pleased with. Hopefully, I'll be able to add to this soon.
Things are looking good, in my opinion! I hope to see more soon, but don't rush yourself. I understand how long it can sometimes take to make oneself satisfied with things like this.
DesEsseintes wrote:The phonology has also undergone yet another revision, but this time it was pretty minor. I might make a post about it, or perhaps it's unnecessary. An outline of the changes was posted in the random phonologies thread here.
I'd be interested in hearing more about it, but if you feel it's unnecessary to talk more about it, that's alright.

Also, this appears to be post #3000 for me.
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Thank you for the feedback, shimobaatar! I'm going to try to reply to the best of my abilities. What's more, I can tell that many descriptions in my plurals post were too superficial and at times confusing. Thank you for making this clear to me so I can sort out the mess.
shimobaatar wrote:What do you mean about noun class and such? Would such a system replace the animacy distinction?
There will definitely be at least two noun classes, animate and inanimate. However, I'm toying with the idea of further subdividing the animate nouns into two, or preferably three, noun classes.
Also, are plurals in Cheyenne extremely irregular, or just irregular enough that it's notable, but not cumbersome?
As will most likely be the case in Hííenununóóoþa, plurals in Cheyenne are generally not predictable unless you know the underlying stem.

Here are brief replies to some of your other questions:

- a heavy syllable is any syllable with a long vowel, or geminate resonant coda, or a plosive coda; a syllable that combines a long vowel and a geminate resonant coda, or a long vowel and a plosive coda is super-heavy, but I don't know whether that has any effect yet
- the lack of gemination in the form ííxkeıstseh referred to the s at the end of the underlying stem not geminating before the plural ending -tseh because it is in the syllable immediately following the stressed syllable, and so an odd number of syllables after the stressed syllable ← this sentence gives me a headache
- in the form oołéhhtseh from the stem oołéh the h geminates as it's in the stressed syllable (I count zero syllables as an even number of syllables)
- I may do a post on the revised phonology when I'm done with my current ideas for the plurals
Things are looking good, in my opinion! I hope to see more soon, but don't rush yourself. I understand how long it can sometimes take to make oneself satisfied with things like this.
Thank you! Your feedback really helps me think and see where I need to apply myself. [:)]

In the last 24 hours, I've had a lot of ideas concerning these plurals. I also got some help from Micamo which gave me further ideas! [:)]

I'm pretty excited, and I'm going to be posting more on these plurals and the concomitant noun patterns that are emerging in the next few days. Hopefully, answers to the many questions I haven't answered yet will be forthcoming in that post.
Also, this appears to be post #3000 for me.
Awesome! :mrgreen:
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10371
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:- the lack of gemination in the form ííxkeıstseh referred to the s at the end of the underlying stem not geminating before the plural ending -tseh because it is in the syllable immediately following the stressed syllable, and so an odd number of syllables after the stressed syllable ← this sentence gives me a headache
- in the form oołéhhtseh from the stem oołéh the h geminates as it's in the stressed syllable (I count zero syllables as an even number of syllables)
Ahh, OK. Understood.
DesEsseintes wrote:There will definitely be at least two noun classes, animate and inanimate. However, I'm toying with the idea of further subdividing the animate nouns into two, or preferably three, noun classes.
Have you had any ideas for what those subclasses might be?
DesEsseintes wrote:In the last 24 hours, I've had a lot of ideas concerning these plurals. I also got some help from Micamo which gave me further ideas! [:)]

I'm pretty excited, and I'm going to be posting more on these plurals and the concomitant noun patterns that are emerging in the next few days.
Glad to hear it!
DesEsseintes wrote:Awesome! :mrgreen:
[:D]
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by DesEsseintes »

The Indeterminate Vowel

Hííenununóóoþa has a new underlying phoneme |ə| that always either: a) surfaces as one of the three vowels /e i o/; or b) elides. It came into being as I worked on plural patterns. Its provenance is described below. Its effects on plural patterns will hopefully be described soon.

The Evolution of the Three-Vowel System
- A.K.A. DesEsseintes' Apologia -


Three-vowel systems with no phonemic low vowels aren't exactly ten a penny, so I've given considerable thought to the evolution of this system. In this post I'm hoping to offer a simple, yet plausible explanation for how it came about in Hííenununóóoþa. What follows is an outline of my current ideas, and will hopefully undergo further refinement.

I'm pretty sure Proto-Híí had a four-vowel system *a *e *i *o.

In Pre-Hííenununóóoþa *o centred and unrounded to in most environments. *a probably started to back to shortly after.

then merged with *i in most environments, except in the vicinity of n s ł h* in unstressed syllables.
*or their counterparts at that stage of the language

raised and rounded to /o/.

In modern Hííenununóóoþa |ə| remains as an indeterminate vowel that surfaces as any of /e i o/ (and their allophones), according to rules of vowel harmony. As a result, *o in Proto-Híí can surface as almost any vowel in Hííenununóóoþa in the vicinity of n s ł h.

|ə| also elides in some environments.

One interesting corollary of this is that there are two different kinds of /i/ in modern Hííenununóóoþa. Standard /i/ which descends from Proto-Híí *i generally causes palatalisation of k t → ch ts. The other /i/ descends from *o and does not cause palatalisation, as the palatalisation process occurred before the ə/i merger.

The actual picture is somewhat more complex as interactions with the glides *j *w present in Pre-Hííenununóóoþa affected the evolution of the vowels. As an example *a merged with *e in the vicinity of *j rather than backing. But that's a whole other story.
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10371
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by shimobaatar »

Cool! I love the idea of indeterminate vowels (actually indeterminate consonants and such as well) in general, and it's nice to see it applied here! I'm also quite a fan of there technically being two /i/s. I read/heard about something similar recently (maybe in Okinawan?) where sometimes a vowel palatalizes preceding consonants, and sometimes it doesn't, for historical reasons. Anyway, it's another cool phenomenon that I'm excited to see applied to Hííenununóóoþa.

How long in the past, compared to "modern" Hííenununóóoþa, were Proto-Híí and Pre-Hííenununóóoþa spoken, if you're currently able to give such a number? What do you mean, exactly, by "in the vicinity of"? Also, why did only n s ł h prevent the schwa from merging with /i/? Where would the "modern" underlying schwa elide? Would it disappear without a trace, or does it explain the existence of some kinds of consonant clusters or something?

Anyway, lovely as always, and I'm looking forward to seeing more!
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by DesEsseintes »

shimobaatar wrote:How long in the past, compared to "modern" Hííenununóóoþa, were Proto-Híí and Pre-Hííenununóóoþa spoken, if you're currently able to give such a number?
If I use the timespan of Proto-Algonquian to modern-day Arapaho and Blackfoot as a guideline, we're probably dealing with something like 2500 years. Pre-Hííenununóóoþa is at the moment defined as anything from the time Hííenununóóoþa split off from its closest relative up until the very latest sound changes.
What do you mean, exactly, by "in the vicinity of"? Also, why did only n s ł h prevent the schwa from merging with /i/?

I used "in the vicinity of" because there are several possibilities. I may well choose to have schwa become the indeterminate vowel regardless of whether it precedes or follows n s ł h.

n s ł h form a distinct subgroup of consonants in many ways in Hííenununóóoþa. They are the main permissible coda consonants, and the only coda consonants that can occur geminate. Much like m n s l in Limestone, they have the greatest potential for metathesis, elision and other such misdemeanours.

A simpler answer would be: because I'm Batman! [}:D]
Where would the "modern" underlying schwa elide? Would it disappear without a trace, or does it explain the existence of some kinds of consonant clusters or something?

The underlying schwa may lead to some otherwise impermissible clusters, especially in pre-tonic position.

kóþþə + kóó → kòþþkóó

þþk is normally not a permissible cluster. Compare

kóþþə + łłtsóó → kòþþòłłtsóó

Here the indeterminate vowel surfaces as o, as þþłł is not permissible under any circumstances. The quality of the vowel is probably due to harmony with the following o rather than the preceding one, although I'm not entirely decided on this. (Note also the high tone on kóþþə lowering before another stressed syllable and spreading to the indeterminate vowel. This tonal spread cannot occur with the "normal" vowels.)
Anyway, lovely as always, and I'm looking forward to seeing more!

Thank you for your ongoing support! [:)]
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10371
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:A simpler answer would be: because I'm Batman! [}:D]
[:O]
DesEsseintes wrote:The underlying schwa may lead to some otherwise impermissible clusters, especially in pre-tonic position.

kóþþə + kóó → kòþþkóó

þþk is normally not a permissible cluster. Compare

kóþþə + łłtsóó → kòþþòłłtsóó

Here the indeterminate vowel surfaces as o, as þþłł is not permissible under any circumstances. The quality of the vowel is probably due to harmony with the following o rather than the preceding one, although I'm not entirely decided on this.
Are there any rules, general or not, that determine whether a cluster is usually not allowed (like þþk) or absolutely never allowed (like þþłł)?
DesEsseintes wrote:(Note also the high tone on kóþþə lowering before another stressed syllable and spreading to the indeterminate vowel. This tonal spread cannot occur with the "normal" vowels.)
[+1] Cool!
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by DesEsseintes »

I haven't posted much on Hííenununóóoþa lately, so I've decided to do a little post on recent accomplishments.

I really should do a proper write-up about the changes to the phonology, but I'm not going to. Instead, here's some morfofo.

Even More Morphophonology

I use the following notation to indicate vowels:
U = any vowel
ú = any stressed vowel
u = any unstressed vowel
As there is no /u/ in Hííenununóóoþa, this is a handy way of doing it.

As per iteration 3.2 of the phonology, there are now six possible codas at the morpheme level /n s z ł l h/. All can occur geminate. I've been working on some morfofo resulting from these new possibilities.

A voiced coda, geminate or no, causes a following stop or affricate to voice, although this is not indicated in the orthography. More interestingly, a voiced coda will turn an onset strident fricative /s ł/ into its corresponding approximant /z l/. This only applies in unstressed syllables.

s ł → z l / _u{n(n) z(z) l(l)}C

As an example:

óso + ltsíí → ózoltsíí [ozoldziː]

The approximants /z l/ are very much restricted in their distribution. They elide word-initially and word-finally. Furthermore, /l/ lenites to [w] in intervocalic position.

{z l} → Ø / #_ , _#
l → w / U_U


So as an example:

bíþþtsıl → bíþþtsı
bíþþtsıl + ısstse → bíþþtsıwısstse

In the first example, the /l/ simply elides, whereas in the second example it turns to [w].

Let's look at the next set of morfofo rules:

e(e) o(o) → eı oı / _{n s z ł l h}ı
ı → Ø / {n s z ł l h}_Cú,Cu(u)#


The vowels e o, regardless of length, shift to the corresponding diphthongs if the next syllable is any of nı sı zı łı lı hı. This frequently feeds the other rule which states that the high vowel in open such syllables elides if followed by an accented or final syllable with a simple onset.

Examples:

fóhbon + ıssbí → fóhboınıssbí
nííeıfbéł + ınoo → nííeıfbéíłnoo


If the resonant is l, we get alternations such as the following:

tsézel + ınoo → tsézeılnoo
tsézel + ıssbí → tsézeıwıssbí


And if the resonant is ł, we can witness ł → l → w if there is a voiced coda in the following syllable:

nííeıfbéł + ılto → nííeıfbéíwılto


Note that these rules can result in geminate sonorants, which otherwise do not occur except in coda before another consonant:

nóónen + ınoo → nóóneınnoo
énonbés + ıse → énonbéísse


So that's it for now. This thread is nine months' old now. [:O]
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10371
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:a voiced coda will turn an onset strident fricative /s ł/ into its corresponding approximant /z l/. This only applies in unstressed syllables.
This is a really cool idea!

I also quite like how limited /z l/ are, and the rules concerning the deletion of /i/. [:D] Everything looks very impressive as usual, and hopefully we can see more soon.

Congratulations on the 9 month milestone, by the way!
HoskhMatriarch
roman
roman
Posts: 1500
Joined: 16 May 2015 18:48

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

I have a recommendation for the affricates. /t͡s/ can be <z> or <ț> and /t͡ʃ/ can be <c> or <ċ>. I would recommend the former of each because they don't have diacritics, but the latter two are still widely supported characters.

Edit: Never mind on the first because <z> is taken by an approximant. I just don't really like <ts> because an affricate isn't a stop followed by a fricative and they're actually contrastive in languages such as Polish...
No darkness can harm you if you are guided by your own inner light
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Glad you like it, shimobaatar. [:D]
shimobaatar wrote:Congratulations on the 9 month milestone, by the way!

Thanks, even though I was actually mocking myself for having so little concrete stuff after nine months of playing with the phonology. [:$]
HoskhMatriarch wrote:/t͡s/ can be <z> or <ț> and /t͡ʃ/ can be <c> or <ċ>

Thank you for the recommendations. However, I'm pretty happy with the romanisation as it is, and I made my decision to use digraphs very early on, as it simply looks better that way to my eyes.
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10371
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:Congratulations on the 9 month milestone, by the way!

Thanks, even though I was actually mocking myself for having so little concrete stuff after nine months of playing with the phonology. [:$]
Oh, whoops, sorry. [>_<] I guess I totally misread the tone in which that was written.

In any case, I'd consider the amount of time and thought you've put into making the language pleasing to you quite admirable. [:)]
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by Frislander »

DesEsseintes, could I ask you whether you are still working on this wonderful language or whether it's on the back burner?
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by DesEsseintes »

It's been a while since I saw this thread on page 1. [xD]

Even though I haven't posted anything in this thread for over a year, Híí* is still my main conlanging preoccupation. Unfortunately, progress on the project has been hindered by several factors, including my evolving ideas about the aesthetic, time-consuming diachronics, and general indecision.

Thanks for the kind words btw. [:)]

*As Hííenununóóoþa is no longer a valid name for the project, I now refer to it as Híí, or - when I need to disambiguate between it and the various other dialects and diachronic stages of the language - as Híí Proper.
Post Reply