Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

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Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Hííenununóóoþa
- Another Esseintial Speedlang


Right. Erm... Yeah. It's another speedlang. As I'm quite pleased with the way things are going with Dánıdoo, and I've really whipped myself into a conlanging frenzy lately, I'm starting a thread on this to see if I can get another lang off the ground while I get into more serious stuff with Dánıdoo. Furthermore, I want to find an outlet for some ideas (mostly aesthetic) that I wanted to use in Dánıdoo, but proved unworkable.

So here it is.

Brief Grammatical Outline

Here are a few ideas, although nothing is set in stone.

Hííenununóóoþa is a polysynthetic language (surprise!) that makes heavy use of noun incorporation. Verbs are marked heavily for valency, with frequent use of applicatives and other valency-shift operations. I'm considering having noun classes that affect the choice of verb stem used.

I would like mostly bound morphemes, also in nouns.

Phonology
Edit: The phonology presented here is now out of date. The new phonology is on page 2 of this thread.
The phonology draws its inspiration heavily from Arapaho, although I've mixed in some of my own ideas and a tiny Navajo influence. (Who can spot it?)

• Consonants •

/n/ n
/b t t͡s t͡ʃ k ʔ/ b t ts ch k '
/ɸ θ s ɬ x h/ f þ s ł x h
/j w/ y w

• Vowels •

Short Monophthongs

/a ɘ ɪ ʊ/ a e/o* ı u

Long Monophthongs

/ɛː iː ɔː uː/ ee ıı oo uu

Short Diphthongs

/eɪ̯ ɪ̯ɘ oʊ̯/ eı ıe ou
/aɪ̯ aʊ̯/ aı au**

Long Diphthongs

/ɛːa iːa ɔːa uːa/ eea ııa ooa uua
/ɛːɘ iːɘ ɔːɵ uːɵ/ eee ııe ooo uuo
/ɛɪ̯ː ɔʊ̯ː/ eeı oou

Triphthongs

/eɪ̯a oʊ̯a/ eıa oua
/eɪ̯ɘ oʊ̯ɵ/ eıe ouo

*see Allophony below
**rare, limited to certain verb endings or sth similar

• Allophony •

So far, all I've really got is

/ɸ w/ become [f ʋ] before front vowels
/ɘ/ is [ɵ] following a velar consonant /k x/ or rounded vowel written o
Edit: I have since rejected this idea. The realisation of the schwa is determined by vowel harmony alone. See the post below on vowel harmony.
• Tone •

Hííenununóóoþa has at least two tones, high and low, with long vowels able to take a falling contour as well. Triphthongs can even have a v́vv́ pattern.

In addition to these two tones, I'm considering a creaky-voiced extra-low tone that would be fairly restricted in its distribution, but I haven't figured anything concrete out yet.

• Phonotactics •

Syllable structure is predominantly

(C)V(V)(V)

At the morpheme level, consonant clusters are rare. The most common clusters by far are of the type nasal/affricate/fricative + /x/, namely

/nx ɸx θx sx ɬx t͡sx t͡ʃx/

Other clusters do rather frequently occur though as a result of short-vowel elision, especially ones starting in /n ɬ h/.

• Sample Vocabulary •

sóółxınınee
hánou'ounouníþíí
á'oosxánununúút
nıtííenıłchxóó
eı'éénıłıt
bxíwéé'wu
óó'łxu
uutsxúúłunoo


I'm afraid I have no idea what these mean yet, but I do have a pronoun:

þííł - I (humble)

Ponderables

The phonology presented here is still quite raw. There are several things I'm not sure about yet. Any and all input would be appreciated.

- I'm not sure about the affricates /t͡s t͡ʃ/, as I feel having both is a bit much, yet I would think the inventory much impoverished if I lost either.
- /a/ and /ɘ/ may turn out to be the same phoneme, as /a/ only occurs with high tone except in word-final position, while /ɘ/ only occurs with low tone, and doesn't appear word-finally except as part of a triphthong.
- I would like to work out some rules about which consonants can occur with which vowels, but I don't know how to go about it without copy-pasting from Arapaho.

Anyways, that's it for now. Just wanted to get this rolling to see what happens. Like with Dánıdoo, I'm going to try and do a bit each day and see where it leads.

Oh, and I love the name of the language.
Last edited by DesEsseintes on 02 May 2015 03:28, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

Wow, I'm really liking the idea of speedlanging. Since I haven't had time to work on Project Ypsilon lately, maybe I should make a thread to put down quick ideas I have for other conlangs…

DesEsseintes wrote:Furthermore, I want to find an outlet for some ideas (mostly aesthetic) that I wanted to use in Dánıdoo, but proved unworkable.
I can definitely relate to moving desired yet unfitting features from one conlang to another.
DesEsseintes wrote:Hííenununóóoþa is a polysynthetic language (surprise!)
Hehe. [:P]

Regarding the phonology, I have a soft spot for /n/ being the only phonemic nasal, and for /b/ existing without /p/ (again, phonemically).

Also, I love seeing <þ> used outside of a Germanic-style conlang.

It's cool to see /ɘ/ without /e/ or /o/ as well. Even though I don't use them very often, it's nice to see central vowels. I like the allophony with that vowel, too.

DesEsseintes wrote:þííł - I (humble)
I like the look of this and the implications of "(humble)".
DesEsseintes wrote:- I'm not sure about the affricates /t͡s t͡ʃ/, as I feel having both is a bit much, yet I would think the inventory much impoverished if I lost either.
My advice is to keep both, although you may want to rethink the romanization of these two sounds.
DesEsseintes wrote:- /a/ and /ɘ/ may turn out to be the same phoneme, as /a/ only occurs with high tone except in word-final position, while /ɘ/ only occurs with low tone, and doesn't appear word-finally except as part of a triphthong.
I like this idea of giving /ɘ/ three allophones.
DesEsseintes wrote:Oh, and I love the name of the language.
[+1] Does it mean anything?
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by Creyeditor »

DesEsseintes wrote: In addition to these two tones, I'm considering a creaky-voiced extra-low tone that would be fairly restricted in its distribution, but I haven't figured anything concrete out yet.
What about having a creaky voiced low tone, where a low tone vowel occurs before a /k/ or /ʔ/, which would get deleted anyway? Or something like that?
DesEsseintes wrote: Ponderables
- I'm not sure about the affricates /t͡s t͡ʃ/, as I feel having both is a bit much, yet I would think the inventory much impoverished if I lost either.
- /a/ and /ɘ/ may turn out to be the same phoneme, as /a/ only occurs with high tone except in word-final position, while /ɘ/ only occurs with low tone, and doesn't appear word-finally except as part of a triphthong.
- I would like to work out some rules about which consonants can occur with which vowels, but I don't know how to go about it without copy-pasting from Arapaho.
- Keep the two affricates
- Make /a/ and /ɘ/ different phonemes, even if they occur in different contexts, like english /h/ and /ŋ/
- Maybe /t͡ʃ/ mostly, though not exclusively occurs with front vowels
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by cedh »

A nice start!
Creyeditor wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote: In addition to these two tones, I'm considering a creaky-voiced extra-low tone that would be fairly restricted in its distribution, but I haven't figured anything concrete out yet.
What about having a creaky voiced low tone, where a low tone vowel occurs before a /k/ or /ʔ/, which would get deleted anyway? Or something like that?
[+1]
Creyeditor wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote: Ponderables
- I'm not sure about the affricates /t͡s t͡ʃ/, as I feel having both is a bit much, yet I would think the inventory much impoverished if I lost either.
- /a/ and /ɘ/ may turn out to be the same phoneme, as /a/ only occurs with high tone except in word-final position, while /ɘ/ only occurs with low tone, and doesn't appear word-finally except as part of a triphthong.
- I would like to work out some rules about which consonants can occur with which vowels, but I don't know how to go about it without copy-pasting from Arapaho.
- Keep the two affricates
- Make /a/ and /ɘ/ different phonemes, even if they occur in different contexts, like english /h/ and /ŋ/
- Maybe /t͡ʃ/ mostly, though not exclusively occurs with front vowels
- I vote for /a/ and /ɘ/ being the same phoneme. I might personally be inclined to always write it as a though.
- As for the affricates, it's a bit odd to have /ts tʃ/ but /s ɬ/. I think what I'd do is to add either /tɬ/ or /ʃ/. In the first case, I might have /tʃ/ appear only before front vowels, alternating with both /ts/ and /tɬ/, but allow both of the latter to rarely appear before front vowels too. In the latter situation, /ʃ/ might be a palatalized variant of any or all of /θ s ɬ x/. No matter which way you decide to go, I would suggest writing /tʃ ʃ/ as tš š or maybe č š.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Thanks for your feedback, shimobaatar, Creyeditor and cedh!
shimobaatar wrote:Wow, I'm really liking the idea of speedlanging. Since I haven't had time to work on Project Ypsilon lately, maybe I should make a thread to put down quick ideas I have for other conlangs…

Do it!
shimobaatar wrote:My advice is to keep both, although you may want to rethink the romanization of these two sounds.
cedh wrote:No matter which way you decide to go, I would suggest writing /tʃ ʃ/ as tš š or maybe č š.

I am pretty sure that I'll keep both the affricates. Your comments concerning the transcription have been duly noted, and are under consideration.
What about having a creaky voiced low tone, where a low tone vowel occurs before a /k/ or /ʔ/, which would get deleted anyway? Or something like that?

Interesting... Will give this more thought.

As you can see, many things are still up in the air.

I did come up with some more pronouns though (this is most unlike me; I can normally never decide on pronouns... Dánıdoo still has none!):

óubúú - you (2s familiar, cute)
óut, óuxt - you (2s familiar, rude)
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by cntrational »

I never noticed until now that both this and Dánıdoo do not actually have the word "Essential" in their titles. Mind blown.

Nice looking conlang, though!
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:Do it!
Thanks for the encouragement! It's definitely something I'd like to do, so it'll probably happen soon.

DesEsseintes wrote: I did come up with some more pronouns though (this is most unlike me; I can normally never decide on pronouns... Dánıdoo still has none!):

óubúú - you (2s familiar, cute)
óut, óuxt - you (2s familiar, rude)
I, too, have problems with pronouns.


How much of the pronoun honorific/ranking system do you have planned out so far? It looks really interesting.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

cntrational wrote:I never noticed until now that both this and Dánıdoo do not actually have the word "Essential" in their titles. Mind blown.
Esseintial adj. 1. pertaining to the aristocratic household of Jean de Floressas des Esseintes; 2. pertaining to the Esseintial group of constructed languages
Nice looking conlang, though!

Thanks! [:)]
shimobaatar wrote:How much of the pronoun honorific/ranking system do you have planned out so far? It looks really interesting.

Yay! I'm not going to say too much at this stage, as I haven't fleshed anything out in detail, but the idea is to combine an Algonquian-style personal pronoun hierarchy with honorifics, whereby altering the hierarchy can be used to express respect and disdain.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Vowel Harmony - Initial Ideas

Front-back vowel harmony is a pervasive feature of Hííenununóóoþa.

I have rejected the idea that the realisation of schwa is determined by the preceding consonant, I've decided that the realisation is purely a matter of vowel harmony.

Vowel harmony is regressive, and mainly affects low-tone short vowels. High-tone short vowels á í ú are normally not affected by vowel harmony.

For the purposes of this analysis, we will use ɘ for the phoneme /ɘ/ and e o for the realisations [ɘ ɵ]. We will use ɨ for a low-tone high vowel of undetermined quality.

ɘ ɨ → e ı / _y
ɘ ɨ → o u / _w
ɘ ɨ → e ı / _CV[-back]
ɘ ɨ → o u / _CV[+back]


The first pair of rules shows that schwa is affected by a following glide regardless of the following vowel. Examples:

Therefore:
nɘnɘ + wee → nonowee
nɘnɘ + yúú → neneyúú
hɨ + wá → huwá

The second pair of rules shows that if there is no glide, the realisation of the schwa is determined by the nucleus of the following syllable.

bɨ + néén → bınéén
tɨhɨ + houá → tuhuhouá

I'm really pleased with how the glides mess up the harmony.


I'm not sure what these vowel harmony rules mean for my phonemic vowel inventory. I now seem to have three high vowel phonemes: /ɨ í ú/, with /ɨ/ realised as [ɪ ʊ] according to vowel harmony. But I don't think I need to overanalyse this.
Edit: I have updated the OP to strike out the now-defunct schwa-after-velars-rule. I also recategorised the vowels.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Brief Update

I'm still working on this lang though it may not look like it.

I've decided there is going to be a third tone, which is low and somewhat creaky voiced. It is indicated with a grave accent. I've already coined one root that uses it. Apart from appearing in roots, there may also be instances where it arises due to morphophonological processes, but the details will have to wait.

yòòs - good

I'm also toying with the negative prefix being fóó or (possibly depending on mood).

→ fóóyòòs - not good; bad

I like the look of that!
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Some Phonology

I'm now thinking what restrictions to place on word-initial consonants. I have two ideas:

Option 1

Like Navaho, all words must start in a consonant. If there is no consonant, a glide is inserted:

ı e → yı ye
o u → wo wu

Words that look like they start in a vowel actually start in an unwritten glottal stop. If I choose this method, I may add /ɰ/ to the inventory.

Option 2

Similar to Dánıdoo, stem-initial w elides before o u and y elides before e ı but they resurface when preceded by prefixes. Words can possibly also start in á without an underlying glide.

I'm leaning towards option 1, just because it's different from Dánıdoo, and I'm tempted to add /ɰ/. My only hesitation is that I don't know how to represent /ɰ/ graphically. I could use g but I don't think it fits the language. I would like to use ɯ but font support for that is rather iffy. We will see.

Unlike Arapaho, there will be no excrescent /h/ before vowels word-initially.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by Lao Kou »

DesEsseintes wrote:I'm also toying with the negative prefix being fóó or (possibly depending on mood).
否/弗? The Shanghalgonquianese? [;)]
→ fóóyòòs - not good; bad

I like the look of that!
Does have a certain flow. [:)]
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Lao Kou wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:I'm also toying with the negative prefix being fóó or (possibly depending on mood).
否/弗? The Shanghalgonquianese? [;)]
Yep! I've been meaning to use f as a negative theme consonant in a conlang for a while now, and it just fits perfectly with the Hííenununóóoþa phonology. [B)]

I'm even considering plagiarising Sinitic further by having a 未 negative along the lines of bıı-, béı-.

Glad you liked my fóóyòòs!
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

DesEsseintes wrote:Brief Update

I'm still working on this lang though it may not look like it.

I've decided there is going to be a third tone, which is low and somewhat creaky voiced. It is indicated with a grave accent. I've already coined one root that uses it. Apart from appearing in roots, there may also be instances where it arises due to morphophonological processes, but the details will have to wait.

yòòs - good

I'm also toying with the negative prefix being fóó or (possibly depending on mood).

→ fóóyòòs - not good; bad

I like the look of that!
[+1]

Lao Kou wrote:The Shanghalgonquianese?
New favorite word.

DesEsseintes wrote:I'm leaning towards option 1, just because it's different from Dánıdoo, and I'm tempted to add /ɰ/. My only hesitation is that I don't know how to represent /ɰ/ graphically. I could use g but I don't think it fits the language. I would like to use ɯ but font support for that is rather iffy. We will see.
I'd definitely say go for option 1.

I think both <g> and <ɯ> would work well for /ɰ/, although it would be cooler to see <ɯ>, in my opinion. What makes you think <g> wouldn't fit the language? And what do you mean by "font support"?
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

shimobaatar wrote:I'd definitely say go for option 1.
Yeah, I think I will.
I think both <g> and <ɯ> would work well for /ɰ/, although it would be cooler to see <ɯ>, in my opinion. What makes you think <g> wouldn't fit the language? And what do you mean by "font support"?

I was trying to say that I'm not sure g suits the aesthetic of the language. A complete lack of d g has a strong effect on the look of the language in my opinion.

As for "font support" I just meant that ɯ often displays badly for some reason, and I'm guessing the reason is that it's not properly a part of most fonts. However, I have a very limited understanding of how these things work, so "font support" may be the wrong term to use.

Here's a word I coined written both ways:

fóónínotòògoweełegíí

fóónínotòòɯoweełeɯíí


On my phone at least, the ɯ displays a wee bit too clunky compared to the other letters.

Hmm, perhaps it's a bad idea to add /ɰ/...
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

Hmm… I definitely don't think adding /ɰ/ is a bad idea, but I can understand your concerns with both of the romanization options.

The final decision is obviously up to you. Have you considered any options other than the two discussed in this thread?
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by cedh »

You could try representing /ɰ/ with r, ŵ, q, ğ, ɣ, or γ.

(Of these, I personally suspect that ɣ might be the best option...)
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by shimobaatar »

cedh wrote:You could try representing /ɰ/ with r, ŵ, q, ğ, ɣ, or γ.

(Of these, I personally suspect that ɣ might be the best option...)

I actually quite like <r>. <ɣ> would be my second choice, though.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by kanejam »

Personally I think r is confusing, and uncommon characters might have the trouble with font support that you're trying to avoid. So my vote goes to v which I thought was an obvious solution, although I'll also suggest y (and j for /j/).
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Wow! Thanks guys for the plethora of options you've laid out before me. [:D]

Left to my own devices, I would never have come up with Kanejam's v. Mind. Blown. [:P]

After some deliberation, I'm down to the following three:

fóónínotòògoweeł

fóónínotòòvoweeł

fóónínotòòɣoweeł
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