Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

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Wribro
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Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

Hello! I'm new here. :)

I've been tinkering with languagey stuff since... ever, I think. But this is the first time that I've decided to put anything out onto the Internet! Woo!

Here are the main ideas that I had regarding this particular project:

Goal Features:
Zero copula, zero genitive, exclusively right-branching noun description, left-branching verb/preposition, and highly analytic. Grammar and vocab heavily borrowed from Malay and Indonesian, with some contributions from Japanese, Hawaiian, and Chinese. Phonotactics more similar to Japanese. The existence of co-verbs comes from Chinese. The use of plural words and definite articles comes from Hawaiian, as well as the preference for an “l”-like liquid. In addition, however, unlike many languages in this part of the world, there is a gender system (hissssss). But! It’s all based exclusively around the terminating vowel of the head noun, so it’s not too bad.

I'll post the phonotactics (super simple) and post some example sentences that I've thrown together here. See if you can tease out my grammar rules yourself! ;)

Phonotactics:
Vowels:
a i u e o, as in Spanish (or Japanese).

Consonants:
m n p t k b d g s z c j w y l h ', all with their IPA values except for c (the "ch" in "church") j (as in "judge") y (as in "yodel") and ' (glottal stop)

There are capital letters in this romanization scheme. For the glottal stop, it's an exclamation point.

Every syllable is CV or V. The sole exception of all of this is the relativizing nasal particle, which can stand on its own as a voiced syllable (like in Japanese).

Stress is on the penultimate syllable, always.

This means that there are a total of 91 possible lone syllables including the nasal. Maybe you could kinda count it as 180 instead, with syllables that don't end in the nasal particle vs the ones that do? idk

That’s not a lot of room to maneuver in. You’ll see why it’s actually a lot more narrow than it looks in a minute.

Gloss Style:
Super simple: Nouns are unmarked, parts which are supposed to agree with their head noun have the corresponding letter/color/gender in parentheses. Adverbs and particles (which are neither nouns nor agree with nouns) and certain pronouns/determiners are in caps. Words that are in the same noun phrases are connected by hyphens, including relative clauses.

Some Example Sentences:
Sa mika kupu melu ma'u.
1SG have(a) butterfly-red(u)-some(u).
I have red butterflies.

Kupu ku n sa 'iga tabu du yado luto ko.
butterfly-the(u)-REL-1SG-want(a) fly(u) at(u) hotel-blue(o)-the(o).
The butterfly I want flies around the blue hotel.

Yado ko hilo.
hotel the(o) spacious(o).
The hotel is spacious.

Kupu ku n we mike lutu.
butterfly-the(u)-REL-2SG-have(e) blue(u).
The butterfly you have is blue.

Coso ma'o.
book some(o).
There are (several) books.

Kupu melu ma'u su du ni.
butterfly-red(u)-some(u)-1SG.POSS(u) at(u) DEM.PROX.
My red butterflies are here.

We de tu.
2SG at(e) DEM.DIST.
You're there.

Sa da ni.
1SG at(a) DEM.PROX.
I'm here.

I'll post some of the grammatical rules encompassed here after ya'll get to chew on this for a little bit. :)
Last edited by Wribro on 05 Nov 2016 21:26, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by k1234567890y »

nice (: so this is an austronesian-based auxlang?

the basic word word is SVO? (:
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

k1234567890y wrote:nice (: so this is an austronesian-based auxlang?

the basic word word is SVO? (:
Yep. :)

Austronesian is the correct adjective! Yes. That is what this is, there we go. :)
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by DesEsseintes »

I'm guessing that since you lost "y" with the consonants, that also doesn't represent its IPA value but rather /j/, the first sound in the word "yes". Yes?

Also: there's nothing wrong or hiss-worthy about having a gender system. [;)]
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Frislander »

Nice! What are the diachronics for this, or is it actually a-priori?
DesEsseintes wrote:Also: there's nothing wrong or hiss-worthy about having a gender system. [;)]
[+1] apparently it has appeared in Austronesian languages of New-Guinea through contact with Papuan languages.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Creyeditor »

Nice idea. Can I guess some words?
Sa I, from Papuan Indonesian sa
kupu butterfly, from Indonesian kupu-kupu
melu red, from Indonesian merah
du general locative preposition, from Indonesian di
ni here, from Indonesian sini
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by clawgrip »

Also yado is probably "hotel" from Japanese 宿 yado "inn", hilo from Japanese 広い hiroi "wide; spacious"
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

Creyeditor wrote:Nice idea. Can I guess some words?
Sa I, from Papuan Indonesian sa
kupu butterfly, from Indonesian kupu-kupu
melu red, from Indonesian merah
du general locative preposition, from Indonesian di
ni here, from Indonesian sini
clawgrip wrote:Also yado is probably "hotel" from Japanese 宿 yado "inn", hilo from Japanese 広い hiroi "wide; spacious"
Yes! All correct!
Frislander wrote:Nice! What are the diachronics for this, or is it actually a-priori?
DesEsseintes wrote:Also: there's nothing wrong or hiss-worthy about having a gender system. [;)]
[+1] apparently it has appeared in Austronesian languages of New-Guinea through contact with Papuan languages.
Completely a priori, there's no history being adhered to. :) Totally making things up as I go.
DesEsseintes wrote:I'm guessing that since you lost "y" with the consonants, that also doesn't represent its IPA value but rather /j/, the first sound in the word "yes". Yes?

Also: there's nothing wrong or hiss-worthy about having a gender system. [;)]
Whoops! I'll go edit that "y" business, you are correct.

I'm sorry for today, but I tired myself out doing projects and grading papers, so other than quickly answering everybody's stuff right now, I don't have a clear update at this moment. I'm super excited to share more with you all!
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

Hello everybody!

Here are some of the details of the grammar:

Syntax:
Canonical order is SVO+PP, as in English.
Subject+Main Verb+Object+Prepositional Phrases.

All things that modify nouns appear to the right. Adverbs appear to the left of what they modify. “Prepositions” are actually full verbs in their own right.

Pronouns/Determiners (for now):
First Person: Sa
Second Person: We
Reflexive: Ja
Demonstrative: Ka (ni/tu)
Indefinite: Yo

A note about “ka”: When used as a determiner by itself, it is exclusively interpreted as the definite article. It is only when it is paired with “ni” or “tu” that the adnominal demonstrative is expressed. However, when it is used pronominally, “ka” takes on the demonstrative meaning, even without the use of ni/tu.

There are no third person pronouns in Basa Luta. Or, Basa Luta could be interpreted to have an open class of words which all can take on a third-person-pronoun-ish meaning.

Noun colors:
In Basa Luta, there is a system of noun classes that's dependent on the last vowel of the head noun. These “genders” (I call them colors for this language) force all adjectives and determiners connected to the noun and all pronouns relating to it to have the same terminating vowel. The subject noun also forces the verbs of the clause to have the same ending; that includes the prepositional co-verbs. Adverbs are unaffected. Genitive nouns are unaffected. Verbs subjected to other verbs are unaffected (in certain cases).

Really, it’s more like… some kind of agreement scheme that’s on maximum overdrive. Not exactly gender-ific. For one thing, the vowel which a noun may end in is random; all the nouns that end in -o, for example, don’t have a particular set of characteristics which they have in common.

In the dictionary, adjectives, determiners, and verbs are in ‘discourse neutral’ or ‘dictionary’ color, which is -a for all of them. This form is used where verbs are treated as objects, where the color of the antecedent is unclear, and for adverbs.

Adverbs:
Adverbs of manner and intensity are formed by full reduplication of the noun, verb, or adjective… because of course there has to be some form of reduplication in an Austronesian auxlang. It wouldn’t be right otherwise!

And now for some more example sentences!

Luta ka 'ola 'ola mela.
blue-the(a) NOT red(a).
The ocean isn't red. (Lit. “The blue isn't red.” (duh :P))

We ma'a ma'a 'aye de yado ko.
2SG SOMETIMES eat(e) at(e) hotel-the(o).
You sometimes eat at the hotel.

Manu ku cepa cepa tabu. Kupu ku 'ola 'ola cepu.
bird-the(u) QUICKLY fly(u). Butterfly-the(u) NOT fast(u).
The bird flies quickly. The butterfly is not quick.

Manu 'olu.
bird none(u).
There are no birds.

Kae 'ole.
water none(e).
There is no water.

Kae ke baya baya lute.
water-the(e) VERY blue(e).
The water is very blue.

Kae lute baye.
water-blue(e) a.lot(e).
There’s a lot of blue water.

Kae baye lute.
water-a.lot(e) blue(e).
A lot of water is blue.

Kae baya baya lute ma'e.
water-VERY-blue(e) some(e).
There’s some very blue water.

Edit: Yech... I decided that I wanted my word for water to end in -e, instead.
Last edited by Wribro on 05 Nov 2016 21:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

More stuffs for everybody!

Genitive:
Example sentence:
Kotaku cigu coso luto ma’o ku n sa suka du puca meje tu ka.
box-three(u)-book-blue(o)-several(o)-the(u)-REL-1SG-like(a) at(u) top-table-DEM.DIST-the(a).
The three boxes of blue books that I like are on that table.

In Basa Luta, there is no word indicating the genitive and no word where other languages would use a copula particle. In both cases, nouns appear one after the other. How can you tell when each construction is being used then? The answer is that, in genitive phrases, the color of the terminating determiner matches the head noun - that is, the head noun's determiner is moved to the front of the phrase. When the last noun in the genitive construction happens to have the same determiner as the head noun would have, the determiner of the last noun is "deleted" so that there's a single determiner which only has the color of the head noun.

Example:
Kalo laji ko.
horse-king-the(o).
The king's horse. The horse of the king.

Kalo laji pi ko.
horse-king-a(i)-the(o).
The horse of a king.

Kalo laji ki po.
horse-king-the(i)-a(o).
One of the king's horses. A horse of the king.

Kalo laji po.
horse-king-a(o).
A horse of a king. A king's horse.

Kalo laji si ko.
horse-king-1SG.POSS(i)-the(o).
The horse of my king.

And for an example of the copula connection in action:
Mawine we 'oweya pa.
mother-2SG.POSS(e) bus-a(a).
Your mom is a bus.

Numbers:
1-10:
Pa
La
Ciga
Waha
Lema
Naha
Huja
Wala
Bila
!umuwa

In Basa Luta, numbers are verbs (or adjectives... which, all adjectives are just verbs anyway), which mean "there are # of X". "Pa" is also an indefinite article.

Now I ask for feedback:
Can anybody think of ways that my genitive construction can be ambiguous, or times when it might be really awkward-sounding? I ask because I've been working on the genitive for darn near forever and am really hoping that I finally figured something out that will work.

Also, of course, I will really appreciate feedback on anything else you guys think of!

Edit: Whoops! I put down an older version of the 'boxes' sentence; the demonstrative was in the wrong spot!
Edit 2: Decided that I want the color for 'king' to be -i, since... I don't actually have any nouns ending in -i? So yeah.
Last edited by Wribro on 05 Nov 2016 21:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

Some more stuffs...

The Reflexive Pronoun:
The reflexive pronoun is used in a sentence whenever the subject is used again, and always refers back to the subject of the sentence. It is never the subject of the sentence. The following sentences demonstrate.

Example:
We ‘ige je ge yado ko.
2SG want(e) REFL(e) to(e) hotel-the(o).
You want (yourself) to go to the hotel.

We ‘ige sa ga yado ko.
2SG want(e) 1SG to(a) hotel-the(o).
You want me to go to the hotel

Sa ‘iga ja ga yado ko.
1SG want(a) REFL(a) to(a) hotel-the(o).
I want (myself) to go to the hotel.

Sa ‘iga we ge yado ko.
1SG want(a) 2SG to(e) hotel-the(o).
I want you to go to the hotel.

Sa ‘iga mawine je.
1SG want(a) mother-REFL.POSS(e).
I want my mother.

Manu su sema sema ‘ayu.
bird-1SG.POSS(u) ALWAYS eat(u).
My bird eats all the time.

Sooo... I only belatedly realized that this section of the forum is not for beginners... Which I kinda am in the sense that I've never had my work subjected to criticism before. Is this stuff that I'm doing not interesting to you guys? Or do you just need to see more before making any further comments?
Last edited by Wribro on 05 Nov 2016 21:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by clawgrip »

I think some glosses of your sentences would be nice. Perhaps you can add some in?
Wribro wrote:Sooo... I only belatedly realized that this section of the forum is not for beginners... Which I kinda am in the sense that I've never had my work subjected to criticism before. Is this stuff that I'm doing not interesting to you guys? Or do you just need to see more before making any further comments?
If you are posting about a specific conlang, then this is the right forum for that, no matter how much of a beginner you are. The Beginner's Corner subforum is pretty much for gathering knowledge that will help you create a conlang.

As for the lack of responses, that's normal here. Everyone has the experience of writing a huge post, waiting a few days, getting no response, waiting a week, writing a new huge post, and then still getting no responses. Maybe after several posts you will inspire someone to comment on something, or maybe you will get one or two occasional followers. That's just the way it is! The best thing to do in that case is to go comment on other people's conlang threads, because if not, you are just doing the same thing to them.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Iyionaku »

So the reflexive pronoun clearly comes from Malay yang, but what about the numbers? Some seem to have close cognates in Malay (Tiga > Ciga, Lima > Lema, Sembilan > Bila), while others I cannot see the etymology (especially "la"). Where are the other numbers coming from?
Wribro wrote:Can anybody think of ways that my genitive construction can be ambiguous, or times when it might be really awkward-sounding? I ask because I've been working on the genitive for darn near forever and am really hoping that I finally figured something out that will work.
Your genitive construction is, regarding your vowel harmony, even less ambiguous than in "real" Malay, where no harmony occurs. Still, it may be ambiguous, but would this really be a problem for you? It's at least not unrealistic, definitely not.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

clawgrip wrote:I think some glosses of your sentences would be nice. Perhaps you can add some in?
Wribro wrote:Sooo... I only belatedly realized that this section of the forum is not for beginners... Which I kinda am in the sense that I've never had my work subjected to criticism before. Is this stuff that I'm doing not interesting to you guys? Or do you just need to see more before making any further comments?
If you are posting about a specific conlang, then this is the right forum for that, no matter how much of a beginner you are. The Beginner's Corner subforum is pretty much for gathering knowledge that will help you create a conlang.

As for the lack of responses, that's normal here. Everyone has the experience of writing a huge post, waiting a few days, getting no response, waiting a week, writing a new huge post, and then still getting no responses. Maybe after several posts you will inspire someone to comment on something, or maybe you will get one or two occasional followers. That's just the way it is! The best thing to do in that case is to go comment on other people's conlang threads, because if not, you are just doing the same thing to them.
Sentence glosses! Okay, I'll do that. I looked at some other threads and saw that glosses were much more standard around here than I thought. So I'll be editing previous posts to make the grammar clearer!

About the lack of responses, thank you for your explanation! And I think I will commit to looking more at other people's work, just like you suggested!
Iyionaku wrote:So the reflexive pronoun clearly comes from Malay yang, but what about the numbers? Some seem to have close cognates in Malay (Tiga > Ciga, Lima > Lema, Sembilan > Bila), while others I cannot see the etymology (especially "la"). Where are the other numbers coming from?
Wribro wrote:Can anybody think of ways that my genitive construction can be ambiguous, or times when it might be really awkward-sounding? I ask because I've been working on the genitive for darn near forever and am really hoping that I finally figured something out that will work.
Your genitive construction is, regarding your vowel harmony, even less ambiguous than in "real" Malay, where no harmony occurs. Still, it may be ambiguous, but would this really be a problem for you? It's at least not unrealistic, definitely not.
Actually... my inspiration for the reflexive pronoun came from the Japanese "jibun" and Malay "yang" is the relativizing particle that I've been using!

And to answer your question about the numbers, I drew equally between Malay and Hawaiian, with some twists thrown in. "La" is from Hawaiian "'elua". Interestingly, there were a lot of similar words between them, particularly "five", which in Malay is, as you say, "Lima", but in Hawaiian it's "'elima"! Pretty neat, huh? :)

About my genitive construction, that was exactly what I needed to hear. I understand that (natural) languages aren't perfect, so I'm okay with a little ambiguity. Really great to know that I nailed it! :D
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

Hi... So, it's been awhile since I last posted. Sorry!

Here's my next bit:

The Indefinite Pronoun/Passive Constructions:
In Basa Luta, the indefinite pronoun is a special pronoun used to affect a passive voicing.

We ‘ige yo go yado ko.
You want the hotel to be visited./You want people to go to the hotel.

Yo ‘ayo kupu melu ku.
The red butterfly is eaten./People eat the red butterfly.

Yo ‘ayo kupu melu ku do manu lutu ku.
The red butterfly is eaten by the blue bird.
(lit. “One eats the red butterfly as/being the blue bird”)

Specifying Aspect/Tense:
Various prepositional constructions and adverbs help disambiguate the temporal structure of the utterance, but are not required. Context is the primary factor in determining when anything is happening.

We ge yado ko de jami ni ki.
You are going to the hotel. (right now).

Sa ga yado ko da jami tu ki.
I went to the hotel. (At that (past) particular time).

Mawane ke ge yado ko.
The father goes/is going/went/will go to the hotel.

Sa ga yado ko ga jami ni ki.
I’ve been going to the hotel. (up to this point).
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Frislander »

Wribro wrote:Sentence glosses! Okay, I'll do that. I looked at some other threads and saw that glosses were much more standard around here than I thought. So I'll be editing previous posts to make the grammar clearer!
A small word about that: in normal glosses spaces are used to separate words (including those within a single phrase), hyphens to separate affixes, and periods where two "morphemes" are fused into a single word/affix (not at the end of utterances). So for example

Kupu ku n sa 'iga tabu du yado luto ko.
butterfly DEF.u REL 1SG want.a fly.u at.u hotel blue.o DEF.o
The butterfly I want flies around the blue hotel.

or

Manu ku cepa cepa tabu. Kupu ku 'ola 'ola cepu.
bird DEF.u quickly fly.u butterfly DEF.u NEG fast.u
The bird flies quickly. The butterfly is not quick.

I also took the liberty of replacing "the" in your glosses with the abbreviation for definite. It's a good idea for function words to be represented by abbreviations like this, and I will give you credit for using some already, but it's best to use them every time you can.

Sorry to be a bit pedantic but consistency across the board is good for ease of understanding.
Wribro wrote:And to answer your question about the numbers, I drew equally between Malay and Hawaiian, with some twists thrown in. "La" is from Hawaiian "'elua". Interestingly, there were a lot of similar words between them, particularly "five", which in Malay is, as you say, "Lima", but in Hawaiian it's "'elima"! Pretty neat, huh? :)
You do know those two languages are related right?
Wribro wrote:The Indefinite Pronoun/Passive Constructions:
In Basa Luta, the indefinite pronoun is a special pronoun used to affect a passive voicing.

We ‘ige yo go yado ko.
You want the hotel to be visited./You want people to go to the hotel.

Yo ‘ayo kupu melu ku.
The red butterfly is eaten./People eat the red butterfly.

Yo ‘ayo kupu melu ku do manu lutu ku.
The red butterfly is eaten by the blue bird.
(lit. “One eats the red butterfly as/being the blue bird”)
Hmm... First two, fine, they're perfectly OK. I'm really not sure about that last one though: I'm pretty sure that there isn't a language which allows the reintroduction of an agent after it has been replaced by an indefinite pronoun. The only way it could work would be if it wasn't an indefinite at all but instead was actually a particle marking the passive voice, but if so then it's not an indefinite pronoun.

Just to be clear, there are plenty of languages out there which do not allow the agent to be reintroduced into a passive clause (e.g. Finnish and Arabic), so there's not reason you could do the same and otherwise keep it how it is.
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Re: Basa Luta: Pan Polynesian/West Pacific Language

Post by Wribro »

Frislander wrote:
Wribro wrote:Sentence glosses! Okay, I'll do that. I looked at some other threads and saw that glosses were much more standard around here than I thought. So I'll be editing previous posts to make the grammar clearer!
A small word about that: in normal glosses spaces are used to separate words (including those within a single phrase), hyphens to separate affixes, and periods where two "morphemes" are fused into a single word/affix (not at the end of utterances). So for example

Kupu ku n sa 'iga tabu du yado luto ko.
butterfly DEF.u REL 1SG want.a fly.u at.u hotel blue.o DEF.o
The butterfly I want flies around the blue hotel.

or

Manu ku cepa cepa tabu. Kupu ku 'ola 'ola cepu.
bird DEF.u quickly fly.u butterfly DEF.u NEG fast.u
The bird flies quickly. The butterfly is not quick.

I also took the liberty of replacing "the" in your glosses with the abbreviation for definite. It's a good idea for function words to be represented by abbreviations like this, and I will give you credit for using some already, but it's best to use them every time you can.

Sorry to be a bit pedantic but consistency across the board is good for ease of understanding.
Wribro wrote:And to answer your question about the numbers, I drew equally between Malay and Hawaiian, with some twists thrown in. "La" is from Hawaiian "'elua". Interestingly, there were a lot of similar words between them, particularly "five", which in Malay is, as you say, "Lima", but in Hawaiian it's "'elima"! Pretty neat, huh? :)
You do know those two languages are related right?
Wribro wrote:The Indefinite Pronoun/Passive Constructions:
In Basa Luta, the indefinite pronoun is a special pronoun used to affect a passive voicing.

We ‘ige yo go yado ko.
You want the hotel to be visited./You want people to go to the hotel.

Yo ‘ayo kupu melu ku.
The red butterfly is eaten./People eat the red butterfly.

Yo ‘ayo kupu melu ku do manu lutu ku.
The red butterfly is eaten by the blue bird.
(lit. “One eats the red butterfly as/being the blue bird”)
Hmm... First two, fine, they're perfectly OK. I'm really not sure about that last one though: I'm pretty sure that there isn't a language which allows the reintroduction of an agent after it has been replaced by an indefinite pronoun. The only way it could work would be if it wasn't an indefinite at all but instead was actually a particle marking the passive voice, but if so then it's not an indefinite pronoun.

Just to be clear, there are plenty of languages out there which do not allow the agent to be reintroduced into a passive clause (e.g. Finnish and Arabic), so there's not reason you could do the same and otherwise keep it how it is.
Hello!

Thank you for your feedback, especially on the glosses. You know, since it has been so long, I think I want to do some housecleaning on my language anyways. So, I will be changing my glosses, as well as a few other things, and will later start fresh with a new thread. This thread will be tidy from the start!

Your advice on the passive voice is also taken under advisement. When using the "yo" pronoun, I will not re-introduce the agent.
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