Quick Diachronics Challenge

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Based on your hints I tried to figure out which languages are possibly related by comparing the number of possible routes from one language to the other.
Spoiler:
Image
This lead me to the following grouping, which is really not based on similarity, only on the number of possible routes. One possibly route is a major subfamily border, two possible routes is a minor boundary. I then went on to reconstruct the forms bottom up and this lead me to my guess. I feel it's worse than the first one.
Spoiler:
*kˤaːdin
Image
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Spoiler:
Now I'm thinking either *ŋ̊aðel
Spoiler:
Image

I still think the bottom-level groupings (1 through 8) are correct, but I've attempted to throw the two words I was stumped by into the scheme as well, one going to group 8 and the other to 4. I've also taken another look at the higher level groupings and come to this:

Code: Select all

PROTO -+-> 123  -+-> 12 -+-> 1
       |         |       |
       |         |       +-> 2
       |         |
       |         +->  3
       |
       +-> 478   +-> 78  -+-> 7
       |         |        |
       |         |        +-> 8
       |         |
       |         +-> 4
       |
       +->  56  -+-> 5
                 |
                 +-> 6
I'm still a little unsure of where group 4 goes, just because of its geographical location and its phonetics.

Proto-word at bottom-level groupings:
Group 1: *kaheŋ
Group 2: *kaziŋ
Group 3: *xazen
Group 4: *hieðei (from earlier *heðei
Group 5: *ɣẽçel (from earlier *ɣẽj̊el)
Group 6: *ŋail
Group 7: *ʕe:ðo (from earlier *ʕe:ðew) (lengthening of the first vowel in open syllables)
Group 8: *hezel (from earlier *ɦezel)

Second-level groupings:
Group 1,2: *kazeŋ
Group 5,6: *ŋajel
Group 7,8: *ʕeðel

Third-level groupings:
Group 1,2,3: *kazen (from ealier *kaðen)
Group 4,7,8: *ɣẽðel (from earlier *gẽðel)

Fourth-level groupings (really hypothetical)
Group 4,7,8,5,6: ŋaðel

Proto-Word: *ŋ̊aðel

A medial fricative might explain why there are no affricates resulting from palatalisation anywhere on the map, and dental fricatives are capable of moving all over the place from to /z/, /d/ and /j/.

I still think the final consonant is *l, nasalising to *n in Group 1,2,3 and palatalising to in Group 4 (as a result of the preceding *e) before shifting to *j (the resulting *ei monophthongising to *e in two languages).
Spoiler:
I am vaguely considering that the proto-word is *kaðel and that the nasalisation in Groups 5 and 6 is the result of rhinoglottophilia, but I find that harder to justify the voiced initials in Group 7.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Kinda would want to know, where do y'all place the urheimat?
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

qwed117 wrote:Kinda would want to know, where do y'all place the urheimat?
Spoiler:
I've been working under the assumption that it's somewhere around about the east-south-east of the area, roughly on the coast to the east of Group 4 with one population group moving south (5,6), another moving north (1,2,3) and another moving west through the central gap between the two mountain ranges (4,7,8).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

qwed117 wrote:Kinda would want to know, where do y'all place the urheimat?
Spoiler:
Definitely in the western bay.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Sangi is almost 100% on with the grouping. Just switch one word in group 8 with one in group 4, and you should be there.
Proto-word wise, no one has really gotten any much better. So I'll give reconstructed phonology:
/m n ŋ/
/p t k q b d g ʔ/
/r s j w/
/a ɛ e i u ɔ o/
/aː uː/
/aːɪ̯ aːʊ̯ uːɪ̯/

Hint 3:
Spoiler:
ʕ reconstructs to a phoneme that was likely more similar to ʔˁ
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 672
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Davush »

I had a *q or in mind for the initial consonant, so since it's confirmed in the proto-lang phonology, I guess the word was:
Spoiler:
*qa:ɪdɛl

*q > k/χ/ʔ seems reasonable, with ʔ then becoming pharyngealised and χ > h in the relevant languages. Perhaps also something like *q > ɢ > ŋ

a:ɪ > a:/æ: seems plausible, and a:ɪ > i: is not too uncommon.
the /ie/ in hieðǝ etc. seems like some sort of breaking before a voiced consonant, so perhaps an early branch had a:ɪ > i:.

*d seems to be the most plausible medial consonant, as d > ð/z/j/Ø are common changes. I don't think I've seen d > h, but I'm sure it's happened.

*l seems to be the final consonant as coda *l > n makes more sense to me than the opposite way round. It also allows for ɛl > ɛu > o/œ type stuff. Possibly also ɛl > ɛʎ > ɛj > eɪ/e: etc.

The final vowel is a bit tricky, ranging from ǝ, e, u, o, œ, e:, eɪ etc. As above, I think *ɛl can explain most of these pretty reasonably.
Feel free to disregard my guess when announcing the winner as I realise I have joined quite late and after some hints have been given!
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 »

Yeah, i had /q/ in mind as well... [:'(]
A signature.
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

So, just for the sake of completeness, my third guess is *ʔaːden
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Spoiler:
Given hint 3 and the given proto-phoneme inventory I'd probably take a guess at something like *qaden
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 »

I'll post something more expansive tomorrow, but right now I'm stuck at connecting the /ŋail/ branch with anything else.

Guess:
Spoiler:
Is it /qaːɪdew/? A coda /w/ would explain coda /l, ŋ,/ and the rounded second vowel of group 8 and 7.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

We've got all the right phonemes, just not the right combinations of them. [:P]
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Spoiler:
Hmmm, I guess either of *qa:ɪden or *qa:den could explain the mid and high vowels outside of groups 1, 2 and 3.

*qa:ɪden might be slightly more likely. It explains why, when not a low vowel, the first vowel is front, but might also explain the pharyngealisation in group 7 (since /ʕ̞/ as the semivowel equivalent to /ɑ̯/)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

I'm willing to reveal the answer, since the major ideas have all been given. Jimydog was the closest at first, with *kayzen. Sangi's grouping was pretty accurate. Davush pieced together the bits that nobody else had, but didn't do well on the parts that were already correct.
The word was *qa:isel (for the purposes of this, I considered both s and z the same; they're intervocalic allophones). I'm going to give this to Jimydog for now...
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

So intervocalic fortition was the key change most of us missed, right?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 »

qwed117 wrote:Sangi is almost 100% on with the grouping. Just switch one word in group 8 with one in group 4, and you should be there.
Proto-word wise, no one has really gotten any much better. So I'll give reconstructed phonology:
/m n ŋ/
/p t k q b d g ʔ/
/r s j w/
/a ɛ e i u ɔ o/
/aː uː/
/aːɪ̯ aːʊ̯ uːɪ̯/
qwed117 wrote:The word was *qa:isel
You mention no /l/ in the phonology.
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 »

Welp, ok, I'll think up the next challenge

Just some closure:
Spoiler:
Image

Group 1: */kaheŋ/
Group 2: */kayzeŋ/
Group 3: *xajzeŋ
Group 4: *hiezeː
Group 5: *ɣɛ̃çel
Group 6: *ŋail
Group 7: *ʕiedœ
Group 8: *aːzol

Group 1 is a descendant of Group 2 with */kajeɲ/ a close cognate.

The Proto word of Group 2 and 3 (and also 1) is */xajzeŋ/

The proto word of Group 5 and 6 is */ɣɛ̃sel/ ~ */ɣɛ̃çel/

Using Sangi's groups kinda hurts my reconstruction, as we have [z] change into [d] in two branches 0.o
In other words, 4 and 7 seem to be in the same sub-branch.
Maybe it matters not, so I reconstruct the proto word of Groups 7, 8 and 4 as: */ʕiezel/

Proto 1, 2, 3 and 5, 6 is: */χˤaizel/ ~ */χˤaisel/. (the χ is uvular, this font makes it look velar)

*/ʕiezel/ is a direct descendant of */qaːisel/ : /ʕiezel/ < /ʕeezel/ < /ʕaːizel/ < */qaːisel/

Finally, Proto 1, 2, 3 and 5, 6 are directly descended from */qaːisel/ by a simple */χˤaisel/ < /qaːisel/
*/ɣɛ̃çəl/'s nasal vowel did come from a pharyngealized consonant right?
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

jimydog000 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Sangi is almost 100% on with the grouping. Just switch one word in group 8 with one in group 4, and you should be there.
Proto-word wise, no one has really gotten any much better. So I'll give reconstructed phonology:
/m n ŋ/
/p t k q b d g ʔ/
/r s j w/
/a ɛ e i u ɔ o/
/aː uː/
/aːɪ̯ aːʊ̯ uːɪ̯/
qwed117 wrote:The word was *qa:isel
You mention no /l/ in the phonology.
That's the reason I switched to a final *n despite reasoning against it earlier, otherwise I would have gone with *qa:idel.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

sangi39 wrote:
jimydog000 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Sangi is almost 100% on with the grouping. Just switch one word in group 8 with one in group 4, and you should be there.
Proto-word wise, no one has really gotten any much better. So I'll give reconstructed phonology:
/m n ŋ/
/p t k q b d g ʔ/
/r s j w/
/a ɛ e i u ɔ o/
/aː uː/
/aːɪ̯ aːʊ̯ uːɪ̯/
qwed117 wrote:The word was *qa:isel
You mention no /l/ in the phonology.
That's the reason I switched to a final *n despite reasoning against it earlier, otherwise I would have gone with *qa:idel.
I can't believe I forgot to put *l [xP] I guess that does make jimydog spot on then, since he had implicated *qayzen.
Last edited by qwed117 on 13 Sep 2017 22:23, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

qwed117 wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
jimydog000 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Sangi is almost 100% on with the grouping. Just switch one word in group 8 with one in group 4, and you should be there.
Proto-word wise, no one has really gotten any much better. So I'll give reconstructed phonology:
/m n ŋ/
/p t k q b d g ʔ/
/r s j w/
/a ɛ e i u ɔ o/
/aː uː/
/aːɪ̯ aːʊ̯ uːɪ̯/
qwed117 wrote:The word was *qa:isel
You mention no /l/ in the phonology.
That's the reason I switched to a final *n despite reasoning against it earlier, otherwise I would have gone with *qa:idel.
I can't believe I forgot to put *l [xP]
Qwazy Qwed [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Post Reply