Anglo-Romance Language Collab

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qwed117
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by qwed117 »

gokupwned5 wrote:Qwed117, for each vowel system, I was planning on making sound changes based on Romance languages with similar vowel systems. So far, it looks like Option C will win, so we could end up with a vowel system of /i y u e ø o (ɛ œ ɔ) æ a/ if we apply umlaut. Also, nasalization adds a nasal distinction for each of those.
That doesn't sound like a good idea; blindly copying changes, when in fact, little is known about them. Try using Linguifex's Index Diachronica to make French from Latin

It doesn't work a significant amount of times.
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Esneirra973
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Esneirra973 »

It would not be blindly copying, we would make changes influenced by those as well as surrounding languages.
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Esneirra973 »

For the vowel system, Option C has received 2 votes whereas Option A received 1 vote. Here is the new vowel system with rounded front vowels resulting from Umlaut.

/i y u e ø o (ɛ œ ɔ) æ a/

5) Should we keep /ɛ œ ɔ/?
a) Yes. Keep them distinct.
b) No. Have them merge with /e ø o/.
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qwed117
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by qwed117 »

gokupwned5 wrote:It would not be blindly copying, we would make changes influenced by those as well as surrounding languages.
We don't know what those changes are. We don't know a lot about how languages change, and a significant amounts for even well-known languages are not easily visible. One example that I like to bring up is Spanish and Sardinian, which share isoglosses despite being different languages.

Frame the question as one of diachronic change, not that of a synchronic stage in the language.
Second of all, my vote was implicitly for that of option A. So it's still functionally a 2-2 draw.
Thirdly, the round vowels in French did not originate in umlaut. That's a far different process from the diphthong and triphthong collapse and monophthongization that occurred in French
In French, ŏ becomes eu which then becomes ø

I don't mean to be combative, but there is a manifest issue with framing questions in this manner. It's about as democratic as Communist Party shortlists, and about as clear as the politics of Russia.
Last edited by qwed117 on 30 Mar 2017 03:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Esneirra973
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Esneirra973 »

I am only using umlaut because I was considering a suggestion from another user. Those sounds could also be derived from changes in French.
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by shimobaatar »

5: b
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Zythros Jubi »

Well, how did Norman/Anglo-Norman vowel system develop?
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by qwed117 »

Zythros Jubi wrote:Well, how did Norman/Anglo-Norman vowel system develop?
Dialect of French; in the same manner. They're both Oil languages, and the Oil languages share this with Arpitan and Occitan, meaning it's a wider trait than just the Oil languages
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Cavaliers327 »

Perhaps we should spend more time rethinking the vowel system. Authenticity is key when creating languages like these. What Qwed117 makes sense. Honestly, vowel shifts should be based on common developments(individual sound change) in linguistics. Trying to put Spanish's vowel system onto another language just doesn't work. Perhaps a sound change like this ɛ goes to æ or something like that. Every language has its own history. Just slapping on a vowel system won't work. Also, since this language is a Western Romance language, the question arises if the language is an oil language or perhaps related to Ibero Romance languages more closely. What similarities does it possess? Is it an independent branch within Western Romance? (I personally favor the later). Also, another thing that could affect the vowel system is if more and more Saxons learnt the language. L2 learners who don't lose their accent will make the majority of speakers . With this situation, the prosody of the language could shift a la French where Franks who spoke Old French changed the language quite a bit. Perhaps we could do it with our Anglo-Saxon invaders!!!


Read this for more information. I find it highly intriguing how the very first noticeable influence is the substitution of the Latin melodic accent by a Germanic stress[14] and its result was diphthongization, differentiation between long and short vowels, the fall of the unaccentuated syllable and of the final vowels, e.g. Latin decimus, -a ‘tenth’ > OF disme > F dîme ‘tenth’ (> E dime; Italian decima, Portuguese décima, Spanish diezmo);

Check it out!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_French#Frankish
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Esneirra973 »

That makes more sense. We should ask about sound changes first and then see what phonology we end up with. For starters, lets do this. You have 24 hours to vote on this and any proposals are welcome.

6) Should we have umlaut for /u o ɔ a/
a) Yes
b) No

7) What should happen to /ɛ ɔ/?
a) Nothing.
b) They become /e o/.
c) They're lowered to /æ a/.
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Cavaliers327 »

6.) b
7.) c

So are we disregarding change #5 ?
Last edited by Cavaliers327 on 30 Mar 2017 03:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by shimobaatar »

6: a
7: b
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by IEPH »

6) A
7) A
Last edited by IEPH on 30 Mar 2017 04:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by All4Ɇn »

6. B
7. A
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Zythros Jubi »

I suggest that vowel length distinction appear later according to open/closed syllables and let Great Vowel Shift begin. Basically, it would become an Oil-like language with Anglo-Saxon and Norse substrate instead of Frankish; while in Gaeltacht/Gaidhealtachd and Wales, it would have Celtic substrate and little Germanic influence instead.
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Esneirra973 »

Zythros Jubi wrote:I suggest that vowel length distinction appear later according to open/closed syllables and let Great Vowel Shift begin. Basically, it would become an Oil-like language with Anglo-Saxon and Norse substrate instead of Frankish; while in Gaeltacht/Gaidhealtachd and Wales, it would have Celtic substrate and little Germanic influence instead.
I think this is a good idea!
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Esneirra973 »

Cavaliers327, sorry of the late reply, but #5 will be discarded. It was worded and planned in the wrong way.
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by qwed117 »

6. B
7. A
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Zythros Jubi
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Zythros Jubi »

Zythros Jubi wrote:I suggest that vowel length distinction appear later according to open/closed syllables and let Great Vowel Shift begin. Basically, it would become an Oil-like language with Anglo-Saxon and Norse substrate instead of Frankish; while in Gaeltacht/Gaidhealtachd and Wales, it would have Celtic substrate and little Germanic influence instead.
"Gaeltacht" above should be changed to the whole Emerald Isle; unlike "Gaidhealtachd", it was non-existant before 20c.
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Re: Anglo-Romance Language Collab

Post by Esneirra973 »

The voting has been finalized.

6) Should we have umlaut for /u o ɔ a/?
There will be no umlaut for the back vowels.

7) What should happen to /ɛ ɔ/?
Nothing will happen to these vowels.

---

8) Should we have a vowel change in open and closed syllables?
a) Yes
b) No

9) This question depends on question 8. What kind of change would we have in open syllables?
a) /i u e o ɛ ɔ a/ > /iː uː eː oː ɛː ɔː aː/ (Proposed by Zythros Jubi)
b) /i u e o ɛ ɔ a/ > /i u~y ei ou iə uə iə/ (Old French)
c) /i e ɛ a/ > /iu eo ɛɔ ea~æa/ (Old English)

You have until 21:00 EDT or 01:00 UTC to vote.
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