(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]

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Avo
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Avo »

Squall wrote:I would like to know about what happened to the stress of Latin verbs in Romance languages.
Latin 'dēsīderō' (wish-PRS.1SG) is pronounced /de:'si:dero:/. How is Italian "desidero" pronounced? Where is the stress?
It's stressed on the second syllable in Italian too. I think Italian is a bad example for stress in Romance languages as a whole though. It has lots of words with lexical stress, that is, stress on unexpected syllables, and apart from final stressed vowels this isn't usually indicated in writing.
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Post by Squall »

Thanks.

In some Romance languages, the stress in verbs in 1SG.PRS is always in the penultimate syllable and the unstressed penultimate syllable was lost (desidero -> *desiro).
Since Italian verbs that are not in the infinitive do not appear in the dictionary, it is not easy to find out the pronunciation.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

Lambuzhao wrote:Hello Everybody,

Has anyone ever heard of Lexical Freenet?
Does anyone know what ever happened to it?
{I believe it was hacked into for nefarious purposes}

Does anyone know of a website/program that does what Lexical Freenet did?
If you never heard of it, check out a brief synopsis here -

http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/website-prac ... aurus.html

It was an interesting & fun little widget/app/whatchamacallit.


Thanks in advance for your input.

Hello, me!

Guess what!! I think Lexical Freenet Connected Thesaurus is back up and running.

www.lexfn.com

VG+

[:D]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

How do I produce breathy-voiced consonants?
I know I have to vibrate yet separate the glottis somehow.

I tried doing something I think is [ɦ] and producing stops before it, but I only end up producing what seems to me to be breathy-voiced vowels. Breathy-voiced fricative slightly work but most also become voiced consonants and a breathy-voiced vowels.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

There are no phonetically breathy voiced stops (maybe even consonants?)

Most so-called breathy voiced stops, are phonologically associated with this feature, the phonetic breathy voice however is on the vowels.
So, you did it right [;)]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Cikkernok »

Could anyone inform me on what the applicative voice is and how it could be employed as a substitute for certain case markings on the noun?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Micamo »

Cikkernok wrote:Could anyone inform me on what the applicative voice is and how it could be employed as a substitute for certain case markings on the noun?
Applicative voice is a type of construction which takes an oblique object (like a beneficiary, instrument, or location) and promotes it to a direct object.

:african: Chichewa

khasu limalimitsidwa ndi Joni
khasu li-ma-lim-its-idw-a ndi Joni
hoe IT-HABIT-farm-INST.APP-PASS-INDIC by John
The hoe is farmed with by John.

khasu limalimitsidwa chimanga ndi Joni
khasu li-ma-lim-its-idw-a chi-manga ndi Joni
hoe IT-HABIT-farm-INST.APP-PASS-INDIC by John
The hoe is used to farm corn by John.

In these examples, the instrument khasu is promoted to object status by the applicative suffix -its, then promoted to subject by the passive suffix -idw.

It is conceptually possible (but not actually done by any natlang AFAIK) for a lang to have no case markers or adpositional phrases at all, and use only verbs with applicative morphemes to create oblique phrases. A con-example of how this could be done:

éhkárì wáʔdèʔéhtsíkǫ̀wísʔ né wáʔdégą́chèrkwîkùʔ
éh-kárì wáʔ-dè-ʔéh-tsíkǫ̀-wís-ʔ né wáʔ-dé-gą́chèr-kwî-kù-ʔ
3zs-cat FACT-3zs.A-3zp.P-mouse-catch-PUNC NE FACT-3zp.A-table-hide-under-PUNC
The cat caught the mice under the table.

The closest natlang example that fits this description that I know of is:

:usa: Wichita

keʔeciráːkwaːwaʔa nahiteːhárih
keʔe-ciy-rak-waːwaʔa na-hita-yiha-hrih
́FUT-INCL.SUB-1ipA-eat.INTR PPL.3.SUB-edge_of_water-be_a_place-LOC
We will eat beside the water.

The problem being the locative morpheme -hrih (and a few other morphemes with similar functions) is that they're not really true applicatives, having some of the semantic punch but syntactically behaving more like adverbializers:

niréːʔakharháncaskírih
na-iy-reː-ʔakhar-hanca-ski-hrih
PPL-INDEF.SUB-THE-house-place_on_flat_surface-IMPF-LOC
where they will put the house
My pronouns are <xe> [ziː] / <xym> [zɪm] / <xys> [zɪz]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by thetha »

Creyeditor wrote:There are no phonetically breathy voiced stops (maybe even consonants?)
Source?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Click »

Ahzoh wrote:How do I produce breathy-voiced consonants?
I know I have to vibrate yet separate the glottis somehow.

I tried doing something I think is [ɦ] and producing stops before it, but I only end up producing what seems to me to be breathy-voiced vowels. Breathy-voiced fricative slightly work but most also become voiced consonants and a breathy-voiced vowels.
Maybe pronouncing the consonants while yawning could do?
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Post by Creyeditor »

Teddy wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:There are no phonetically breathy voiced stops (maybe even consonants?)
Source?
What I learned in my phonetics class [:D]
I really don't have one. But if you think of voicing in stops as Voicing Onset Time, voiced, voiceless and aspirated stops only differ in the point in time in which the voicing begins. Voiced stops have voicing before the stopping, voiceless shortly after the end of the stopping, and aspirated a while after the burst. So where would breathy voiced stops be?
Click wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:How do I produce breathy-voiced consonants?
I know I have to vibrate yet separate the glottis somehow.

I tried doing something I think is [ɦ] and producing stops before it, but I only end up producing what seems to me to be breathy-voiced vowels. Breathy-voiced fricative slightly work but most also become voiced consonants and a breathy-voiced vowels.
Maybe pronouncing the consonants while yawning could do?
There is also yawny voice [;)]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

What is the second sound in my recording, the first is an /l/? Is it a velar lateral?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0gzOvLF137C
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by thetha »

Creyeditor wrote: What I learned in my phonetics class [:D]
I really don't have one. But if you think of voicing in stops as Voicing Onset Time, voiced, voiceless and aspirated stops only differ in the point in time in which the voicing begins. Voiced stops have voicing before the stopping, voiceless shortly after the end of the stopping, and aspirated a while after the burst. So where would breathy voiced stops be?
Breathy voice is not entirely defined by a place on the scale of aspiration, much like creaky voice isn't. But following wikipedia, I would presume that breathy voiced stops proper would show acoustic evidence of voicing during closure as well as some level of delay in the onset of complete voicing.
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Post by Creyeditor »

Okay, I thought it would not be possible to have acoustic evidence for vocing during closure, only before and after it. Closure is the time, when you can't hear anything, isn't it?
If a stop would have voicing before the closure and a delay after the closure, would that be called Pre-Voicing? Or maybe just partially voiced? I think it would be really difficult to articulate.
You mention creaky voice, I think this is a good analogy. Are there creaky voiced stops?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Ahzoh wrote:What is the second sound in my recording, the first is an /l/? Is it a velar lateral?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0gzOvLF137C
Does anyone know?
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Post by Dezinaa »

Ahzoh wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:What is the second sound in my recording, the first is an /l/? Is it a velar lateral?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0gzOvLF137C
Does anyone know?
They don't sound very different, which makes me think one of them was apical, and the other was laminal. I don't know which ones, though.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Dezinaa wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:What is the second sound in my recording, the first is an /l/? Is it a velar lateral?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0gzOvLF137C
Does anyone know?
They don't sound very different, which makes me think one of them was apical, and the other was laminal. I don't know which ones, though.
The first consonant sound [la.ala] is maybe dental in that I feel the tip of my tongue touch the upper part of my teeth, but the second consonant sound [*a.a*a] cannot be apical, because my tongue does not touch the alveolar ridge at all, but feels articulated down the throat more, which is why I think it may be velar.
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Post by Dezinaa »

Ahzoh wrote:The first consonant sound [la.ala] is maybe dental in that I feel the tip of my tongue touch the upper part of my teeth, but the second consonant sound [*a.a*a] cannot be apical, because my tongue does not touch the alveolar ridge at all, but feels articulated down the throat more, which is why I think it may be velar.
Mabye it's something like a dental approximant with lateral release: /ð̞ˡ/ (Not sure if that's even a real thing)
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Post by Ahzoh »

Dezinaa wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:The first consonant sound [la.ala] is maybe dental in that I feel the tip of my tongue touch the upper part of my teeth, but the second consonant sound [*a.a*a] cannot be apical, because my tongue does not touch the alveolar ridge at all, but feels articulated down the throat more, which is why I think it may be velar.
Mabye it's something like a dental approximant with lateral release: /ð̞ˡ/ (Not sure if that's even a real thing)
I dunno if you interpreted that right, but my [l] still touches the alveolar ridge, but my tip of tongue touches the upper part of my UPPER teeth.
If you already understood that, then disregard my restatement.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Znex »

Ahzoh wrote:
Dezinaa wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:The first consonant sound [la.ala] is maybe dental in that I feel the tip of my tongue touch the upper part of my teeth, but the second consonant sound [*a.a*a] cannot be apical, because my tongue does not touch the alveolar ridge at all, but feels articulated down the throat more, which is why I think it may be velar.
Mabye it's something like a dental approximant with lateral release: /ð̞ˡ/ (Not sure if that's even a real thing)
I dunno if you interpreted that right, but my [l] still touches the alveolar ridge, but my tip of tongue touches the upper part of my UPPER teeth.
If you already understood that, then disregard my restatement.
Dental means your tongue touches your upper teeth, as opposed to interdental where your tongue goes between your teeth.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Znex wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:
Dezinaa wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:The first consonant sound [la.ala] is maybe dental in that I feel the tip of my tongue touch the upper part of my teeth, but the second consonant sound [*a.a*a] cannot be apical, because my tongue does not touch the alveolar ridge at all, but feels articulated down the throat more, which is why I think it may be velar.
Mabye it's something like a dental approximant with lateral release: /ð̞ˡ/ (Not sure if that's even a real thing)
I dunno if you interpreted that right, but my [l] still touches the alveolar ridge, but my tip of tongue touches the upper part of my UPPER teeth.
If you already understood that, then disregard my restatement.
Dental means your tongue touches your upper teeth, as opposed to interdental where your tongue goes between your teeth.
Does that mean I produce dental stops as well? Hmm.
Anyways, what is the unidentified sound that I think is velar, but not sure?
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