North germanic neuter /t/

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HinGambleGoth
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North germanic neuter /t/

Post by HinGambleGoth »

Can anyone explain where the use of /t/ to mark neuter in North Germanic derives from?

German and Dutch don't seem to have a distinction between en/ett, min/mitt, and so on. At least no anymore, as far as I know.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Lao Kou »

HinGambleGoth wrote:Can anyone explain where the use of /t/ to mark neuter in North Germanic derives from?

German and Dutch don't seem to have a distinction between en/ett, min/mitt, and so on. At least not anymore, as far as I know.
Dutch:
this: deze/dit; that: die/dat; the: de/het ?

And German /t/ went to /s/: dies/das ?

Doesn't answer your question, though. [:$]
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Ashucky »

It has the same origin as English "it", Proto-Germanic *hit "this" in nominative and accusative neuter singular. It became a definite article in Old Norse and suffixed to the noun/adjective/pronoun.

The German and Dutch variants come from PG *þat (nom and acc neut sg), same as English "that" (and "the"), with the same meaning.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Lambuzhao »

IMO this neuter /t/ business looks to be an innovation in Eastern and Northern Germanic strong adjectives.

looking at :got: as well, I think North Germanic & :got: patterned their (strong) adjectives closer to the declension of demonstrative & interrogative pronouns.

Cf. this page on Proto-Germanic & PIE Studies
http://www.protogermanic.com/2013/07/pr ... t-iii.html
(*NB: the author switched SG & PL endings for the neuter forms [:S] ).

Ironically, in :got:, the neuter interrogative pronoun is ƕa (without final /t/), instead of an expected *ƕata.

Also worth noting, it seems that Gothic neuter strong ADJs exhibit two forms in NOM/ACC.SG, one with the /t/ ending and one without:
E.g. goþ / godata = good-N.NOM|ACC.SG
blind / blindata = blind-N.NOM|ACC.SG


As for where the final /t/ comes from in the demonstratives & interrogatives, well, they go straight on back to PIE /d/.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by HinGambleGoth »

Lambuzhao wrote: Also worth noting, it seems that Gothic neuter strong ADJs exhibit two forms in NOM/ACC.SG, one with the /t/ ending and one without:
E.g. goþ / godata = good-N.NOM|ACC.SG
blind / blindata = blind-N.NOM|ACC.SG
Thanks, it was the adjectives and possessives that bugged me, the demonstratives I already knew. I guess the ending -ata existed in proto-Norse and that it was contracted to -tt during the syncope period.

Germanic is a messy branch with isoglosses running all over the place [:S]
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Ephraim »

This is not just a North and East Germanic thing, the neuter /t/ is attested in older West Germanic as well. The strong adjective declension (including the declension of possessive pronouns) in Germanic is in fact derived from the pronominal declension. This is Germanic innovation (compare Greek and Latin where adjectives generally decline like nouns), but it's found already in Proto-Germanic. This is quite clear if you compare for example the dative singular endings of nouns, pronouns and strong adjectives in more conservative Germanic languages.

So the t of the nom.sg/acc.sg ending of the neuter strong adjectives is derived from the pronominal declension, where PIE already had a *–d not found in nouns and adjectives. It gets slightly more complicated, however. As mentioned above Gothic has two forms, one long with /t/ and one short without (goþ and godata). This variation is found in West Germanic as well, compare Old High German guot and guotaȥ (where OHG ȥ would have yielded modern s). So the long form is found in all branches of Germanic. The short, however, is not found in North Germanic where we only find the long form (Old Norse gott).

The short forms are easy to reconstruct for PG. Gothic goþ and OHG guot goes back to PG *gōda which I believe derive from a Pre-Proto-Germanic *gōdat with the same ending as found on the pronouns (just like for the other endings). But wordfinal *-t of polysyllabic words was lost (remember that stress was on the first syllable). For this reason, monosyllabic pronouns such as *hit kept final *t but adjectives lost it.

The long ending is more problematic. Both Gothic godata and OHG guotaȥ can derive from PG **gōdatō. But reconstructing this ending does not work for ON as it would have triggered u-umlaut (final *ō > ū > u > 0) which it does not. PG **gōdata works for OHG and ON but it would have yielded gothic godat. It's possible that the long endings are actually parallel innovations in East Germanic and Northwest Germanic. Northern and Western Germanic likely just restored the *t from the pronominal declension (**gōda > **gōdat). Eastern Germanic extended this *t with a vowel (which in Gothic is also found in the demonstrative *þata where it is not original).
HinGambleGoth wrote:Thanks, it was the adjectives and possessives that bugged me, the demonstratives I already knew. I guess the ending -ata existed in proto-Norse and that it was contracted to -tt during the syncope period.
The ending -tt of Swdish mitt and ett is simply an assimilation of earlier (Pre-Old Norse) *–nt.

PG *ainaz > *ainaʀ > *ainʀ > *ainn > ON einn (Swedish en)
PG *ainat (?) > *ainat > *aint > *aitt > ON eitt (Swedish ett)
PG *mīnaz > *mīnaʀ > *mīnʀ > *mīnn > ON minn (Swedish min)
PG *mīnat (?) > *mīnat > *mīnt > *mītt > ON mitt (Swedish mitt)
Proto-Norse *(h)inaʀ > *(h)inʀ > ON hinn, ON fiskr=inn (Swedish fisken)
Proto-Norse *(h)inat > *(h)int > ON hitt, ON hús=it (Swedish huset)
Last edited by Ephraim on 12 Sep 2014 13:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by HinGambleGoth »

Just a bit off-topc
Ephraim wrote: PG *ainaz > *ainaʀ > *ainʀ > *ainn > ON einn (Swedish en)
Oswe ēnn/ētt,

Since these were overlong syllables, they were shortened in the late middle ages, yielding different results in different dialects. Some have /ɛn:/ (standard) other have the opposite /e:n/, this applies to many more words, Oswe dōttir became dotter (standard) or doter (some dialects). Another example is the swedish name Sven from Swēnn <= *Swainaʀ.

The loss of "free" quantity seems to be a pretty dramatic difference comparing medieval and modern Germanic languages, AFIAK only a handful dialects, like Finland Swedish and Dalcarlian retain medieval Germanic quantity, whilst all large/standard languages have developed fixed/allophonic length.

BTW, does anyone know why Old east Norse has -in for 2nd-person plural? all the other old Germanic languages seem to have a dental,compare Oswe īr havin with Oic ér hafið OE gē habbaþ :wat:
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Ceresz »

Not sure if the answer you're looking for is in there, but here's a nice pdf for you to peruse.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Lambuzhao »

Not at all an expert on Swedish, but looking at Old Swedish verb paradigms, it is possible, however unlikely, that it begins in the Conjunctive Present tense, where there's overlap in the 2PL and 3PL forms. somehow, this influenced the Indicative Present & Past 2PL , maybe

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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Lambuzhao »

HinGambleGoth wrote:
OE gē habbaþ :wat:
Refreshing my OE, also remember that all STRONG verb PLURALS were leveled to final /n/ in the Preterite Indicative, Present and Past Subjunctive , and Preterite-Present Verbs (can, dare, will, etc)...except for the contemnible horde of weak verbs. [:S]

Of course, OE prolly had next to no influence on OSwe, but good to just keep in mind for comparison's sake.

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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by HinGambleGoth »

Lambuzhao wrote:
Of course, OE prolly had next to no influence on OSwe, but good to just keep in mind for comparison's sake.

[;)]
It is the other way around you know, but the English did give us most of our Christian loanwords, since it was mostly English and Saxons that were missionaries in Scandinavia.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by DrGeoffStandish »

HinGambleGoth wrote:It is the other way around you know, but the English did give us most of our Christian loanwords, since it was mostly English and Saxons that were missionaries in Scandinavia.
Should be noted though that western dialects were to a higher degree infleunced by English terminology and that the eastern dialects were to a higher degree influenced by Low German terminology.

Speaking about Christian loanwords, does anyone know hy there were two words for 'church' with only the stem vowel differing, kirkja and kyrkja? SAOB on the etymology on Swedish kyrka 'church':
      • fsv. kyrkia, kirkia, motsv. fd. kirk(i)æ, kyrk(i)æ, d. kirke, isl. kirkia, fnor. kyrkia; av feng. cirice, cyrice (eng. church), motsv. fsax. kirika, fht. kiricha (t. kirche); ytterst av gr. κυϱιακόν, κυϱικόν (eg. adj. n. sg. till κύϱιος, herre), hörande till Herren, användt substantiverat med underförstått δῶμα, hus l. dyl., i bet.: Herrens hus.
They seem to have been used simulatenously in all varieties of Old Norse so it's not a dialect thing even though today different dialects have made difefrent choices. Indeed, Icelandic, Faroese and Danish dialects seem to have chosen i while Swedish dialects seem to have chosen y. Norwegian dialects are more varied, I guess. My own, Jamtish spoken in Jämtland (today situated in Sweden but settled by trønds sometime before the Viking age), has chosen y even though in local documents from the time the spelling was typically with i. For example, the following Jamtish legal document from 1445 contains kirkio (ON stand. spel. kirkju):
      • Alle mæn som tetta bref kan foræ koma høra heller see helsom
        wi olaf pædirsson ok andirs pædirsson kierlika medh gudh. kienn-
        oms wi ok fullelikæ til standom medh tesse vpno breffue ad wi
        vpburidh hafum af joon i lansemnæ xvjj/-j/ jæmpska mærk til takka
        ok fulo nøgyo foræ tridiungen i lanzemnæ liggiendis i sundasy(o) sokn
        ok vplatum vi joon fornemdha jordh medh godum vilia ok beradnæ
        modhæ foræ fornemdhæ xvjj/-j/ jæ(m)psca mark. Ty skal han vara ok
        hans eftherkomandhæ quith ok akæræløøs fore aas ok varum arfuum
        epterkomandum fore alle ytermere epter talan. War tetta giorth
        ok stadfesth vidh sunda syo kirkio sunadagin nesth epter passka
        dagh ta som lidith var fraa byrdh vars herra jesu christi tusandha
        vetra fyra hundhradha vetra firtighi vettra ok v vetra hia varandha
        ma(n)gom godum manum ok vitnath vndir atta fasta fiørsth erik
        i anuik lafrens i lokom nisse i marsæther nigils torkilson simon i
        lostum sten pædirsson, joon benzson jænis i hakas hengiæ jænis
        i brata by vitnis men seuasth i tafla nes jap i sauik /l-/til mera visso/-l/
        Til mera visso bidiom vi olaf pædirsson ok andirs pædirsson be-
        sskiedelika men biørn i grimenes ok kiætil i *i døuingh om teres
        jnstiglæ for tetta breff medan vi ey sielfue instiglæ hafuum


        Source.
The language is hardly pure Jamtish, more like a mashup of Jamtish and Danish (Danish rule between late 14th and mid 17th century though autonomy with own currency, mark jamska 'Jamtish mark', until mid 16th century), e.g., there are no diphthongs present (sten instead of stein, definitely a Danish spelling rule) but there are nasal assmiliation (vetra instead of vintra, definitely a Jamtish pronunciation).
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by sangi39 »

DrGeoffStandish wrote:Speaking about Christian loanwords, does anyone know hy there were two words for 'church' with only the stem vowel differing, kirkja and kyrkja? SAOB on the etymology on Swedish kyrka 'church':
      • fsv. kyrkia, kirkia, motsv. fd. kirk(i)æ, kyrk(i)æ, d. kirke, isl. kirkia, fnor. kyrkia; av feng. cirice, cyrice (eng. church), motsv. fsax. kirika, fht. kiricha (t. kirche); ytterst av gr. κυϱιακόν, κυϱικόν (eg. adj. n. sg. till κύϱιος, herre), hörande till Herren, användt substantiverat med underförstått δῶμα, hus l. dyl., i bet.: Herrens hus.
At a guess, it could be that the Swedish variant is an etymological spelling based on the Greek word, while the other North Germanic languages kept the spelling based on their English and Low German origins.

Do all Swedish speakers pronounce kyrka as if it were spelt with a y or do some, despite the spelling, pronounce it as if it were spelt with i? If there are some people with a y spelling but an i pronunciation, could that be evidence that the pronunciation with y was originally a spelling pronunciation?
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by DrGeoffStandish »

sangi39 wrote:At a guess, it could be that the Swedish variant is an etymological spelling based on the Greek word, while the other North Germanic languages kept the spelling based on their English and Low German origins.
I think Nynorsk Norwegian has y too so it's not only Swedish. It seems a bit far fetched that someone living when the word was introduced would use an etymological Greek spelling, I doubt spelling conventions was of any use when Latin script wasn't even in use. There probably was no y phoneme either even though the exact timing is difficult to pinpoint. There could be another explanation, maybe it wasn't borrowed only from Old English but also directly from Greek? Remember that Scandinavia had close contacts with the Byzantine Empire which I guess was Greek speaking.
sangi39 wrote:Do all Swedish speakers pronounce kyrka as if it were spelt with a y or do some, despite the spelling, pronounce it as if it were spelt with i? If there are some people with a y spelling but an i pronunciation, could that be evidence that the pronunciation with y was originally a spelling pronunciation?
I think only dialects with a generally delabialized y would have i here. In any case, I don't think one necessarily have to consider only Swedish dialects with i, the fact that there are North Germanic dialects at all with i would be just as much a support.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by HinGambleGoth »

Old English had palatalized the Greek loanword, this makes me think a little.

If the English missionaries showed up and say /ˈtʃiritʃe/ to the heathen northerners, why is it that that they end up pronouncing it "etymological"? with /k/? Low german lacks palatalization as far as I know. Palatalization was one of the largest differences between OE and ON, Old low German was in many ways closer to ON, particularly East Norse.

Many Scandinavian dialects did undergo the same change as English, but that was much later, Old Norse lacked affricatives and only had the original PG sibilants s/z. Wouldn't the converts end up going to the "syrsa" ? :wat:

What is the exact chronology of OE palatalization, the West Saxon spelling doesn't really tell anything since they spelt the palatalized and velar phonemes with the same letters. And Christian loanwords underwent the change, this, along with "hard" forms in northern dialects (can be blamed to the danes) seems to show that it happened after the settlement in Britain, and that its not a common shift with Frisian.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by DrGeoffStandish »

HinGambleGoth wrote:If the English missionaries showed up and say /ˈtʃiritʃe/ to the heathen northerners, why is it that that they end up pronouncing it "etymological"? with /k/?
Maybe [tʃ] would be interpreted as being merely a weird form of [k] by the norse? How do the Finnish speaking people approximate the Finland Swedish phoneme [tʃ] (⇔ Sweden Swedish [ɕ] which Sweden finns approximate as )? For example, how is FinSwe kyrka [ˈtʃʏr.kɑ] 'church' pronounced?
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Systemzwang »

DrGeoffStandish wrote:
HinGambleGoth wrote:If the English missionaries showed up and say /ˈtʃiritʃe/ to the heathen northerners, why is it that that they end up pronouncing it "etymological"? with /k/?
Maybe [tʃ] would be interpreted as being merely a weird form of [k] by the norse? How do the Finnish speaking people approximate the Finland Swedish phoneme [tʃ] (⇔ Sweden Swedish [ɕ] which Sweden finns approximate as )? For example, how is FinSwe kyrka [ˈtʃʏr.kɑ] 'church' pronounced?

Hm. That's a pretty difficult question to answer really. Most are taught at school to emulate the pronunciation in Sweden. Some never learn well enough and go for orthographical variations ([kyrkkA], but you can also probably find šyrkka, syrkka as well as tsyrkka - Finns vary very much with regards to their ability to produce sounds in that region.) Then again, I have lived close to Pargas for too long, and there the word is genuinely /kyrka/

However, did the missionaries really have tS at that time? (Think of the Scottish kirk)
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Lambuzhao »

Systemzwang wrote: and go for orthographical variations ([kyrkkA], but you can also probably find šyrkka, syrkka as well as tsyrkka -
Ooh, sounds like we're veering into Varangian/Kievan Rus/OSC territory:

via Old High German chirihha (compare Old Church Slavonic црькꙑ (crĭky), Bulgarian църква (cǎrkva), Russian церковь (cerkovʹ)).

[:D]

BTW, West Frisian has tsjerke (!)
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by HinGambleGoth »

Lambuzhao wrote: BTW, West Frisian has tsjerke (!)
Frisian, english's redneck brother.
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Re: North germanic neuter /t/

Post by Xonen »

Systemzwang wrote:
DrGeoffStandish wrote:
HinGambleGoth wrote:If the English missionaries showed up and say /ˈtʃiritʃe/ to the heathen northerners, why is it that that they end up pronouncing it "etymological"? with /k/?
Maybe [tʃ] would be interpreted as being merely a weird form of [k] by the norse? How do the Finnish speaking people approximate the Finland Swedish phoneme [tʃ] (⇔ Sweden Swedish [ɕ] which Sweden finns approximate as )? For example, how is FinSwe kyrka [ˈtʃʏr.kɑ] 'church' pronounced?

Hm. That's a pretty difficult question to answer really. Most are taught at school to emulate the pronunciation in Sweden.

We are? That's news to me - although it has been twenty years since I started learning Swedish, so maybe things have changed since then... But the way I was taught, it's [ˈtʃyrk:ɑ̈]. Some who can't manage [tʃ] would probably approximate with [ts], while others who can't grasp the idea of pronouncing <k> as anything but [k] would use [k].

Anyway, FWIW, Etymonline gives the word going all the way back to Proto-Germanic as *kirika. Which would explain the initial consonant, but not the /y/ (although that obviously would have been present in the Greek original).
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