Reflexives

A forum for translations, translation challenges etc. Good place to increase your conlang's vocabulary.
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Ear of the Sphinx
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Reflexives

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

:eng: English
I wash. I wash myself. He washes. He washes himself.
I wash. I wash my-self. He wash-es. He wash-es him-self.
1SG wash. 1SG wash 1SG.O-REFL. 3SG wash-3SG. 3SG wash-3SG 3SG.O-REFL.
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
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Visinoid
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Visinoid »

:eng:
I wash (something). I wash myself. He washes (something). He washes himself.
I wash. I wash my-self. He wash-es. He wash-es him-self.
1SG wash. 1SG wash 1SG.O-REFL. 3SG wash-3SG. 3SG wash-3SG 3SG.O-REFL.

:fra:
Je lave (quelque chose). Je me lave. Il lave (quelque chose). Il se lave.

:esp:
Lavo (algo). Me lavo. Lava (algo). Se lava.

:por:
Eu lavo (algo). Eu lavo-me. Lava (algo). Lava-se.

:epo:
Mi lavas (iun). Mi lavas min. Li lavas (iun). Li lavas sin.
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Avo »

:deu: Ich wasche. Ich wasche mich. Er wäscht. Er wäscht sich.

:ita: Lavo. Mi lavo. Lava. Si lava.

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Ear of the Sphinx
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

Glosses! :-)

---

:pol: Polish
[mɨjɛ] [mɨjɛ ɕɛ] [mɨjɛ] [mɨjɛ ɕɛ]
Myję. Myję się. Myje. Myje się.
Myj-ę. Myj-ę się. Myj-e. Myj-e się.
wash-1SG. wash-1SG REFL. wash-3SG. wash-3SG REFL.


:con: Emyt
[ɡansɯɕkeɪ̃ten] [ɡansɯː̃ten] [ɡansɯɕkeɪ̃tɜf] [ɡansɯː̃tɜf]
Gansyśkęten. Gansỹten. Gansyśkętov. Gansỹtov.
gansy-śke-˛-t-en. gansy-˛-t-en. gansy-śke-˛-tov. gansy-˛-tov.
wash-CAUS-PRED-PRES-1SG. wash-PRED-PRES-1SG. wash-CAUS-PRED-PRES. wash-PRED-PRES.
Last edited by Ear of the Sphinx on 30 Oct 2011 18:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reflexives

Post by xinda »

:roc: Mandarin
我洗(什麼東西)。我洗我自己。他洗(什麼東西)。他洗他自己。
wǒ xǐ (shénme dōngxi). wǒ xǐ wǒ zìjǐ. tā xǐ (shénme dōngxi). tā xǐ tā zìjǐ.
1s wash (smth). 1s wash 1s self. 3s.M wash (smth). 3s.M wash 3s.M self.

:roc: Taiwanese
我洗(什麼物件)。我洗我整身軀。伊洗(什麼物件)。伊洗伊整身軀。
goa se (sia-mi mih-kiann). goa se goa tsi sin-khu. i se (sia-mi mih-kiann). i se i tsi sin-khu.
1s wash (smth). 1s wash 1s full body. 3s wash (smth). 3s wash 3s full body)
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Micamo »

Here's something interesting for those languages that don't use reflexive pronouns: How do you handle oblique arguments coreferent with something that C-commands it, like this?

:eng: I have to look deep inside myself.

:eng: He gave that big fat bonus to himself.

:eng: I made a delicious chocolate cake for myself.
My pronouns are <xe> [ziː] / <xym> [zɪm] / <xys> [zɪz]

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Chagen
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Chagen »

:Kron:

Ci kpe.

Ci kpe Ci.

Run kpe.

Run kpe Run.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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Re: Reflexives

Post by thetha »

:vie: tôi rửa. 1S wash [toːi̯˦ zɨə̯˧˨˦]
tự tôi tắm rửa. REFL 1S bathe [tɨ̰ʔ˨˩ toːi̯˦ tɐm˦˥ zɨə̯˧˨˦]
nó rửa. 3S wash [nɔ˦˥ zɨə̯˧˨˦]
tự tắm rửa. REFL bathe [tɨ̰ʔ˨˩ tɐm˦˥ zɨə̯˧˨˦]
It would sound kind of weird to use only rửa for a person, that verb is for like dishes or clothes or something, so you must use the more specific tắm rửa here. tự literally means 'self' but I glossed it as a reflexive particle here since that's what its function was.
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Sankon »

:lat:
Lavō. Mē lavō. Lavat. Sē lavat.
/lawoː || meː lawoː || lawat || seː lawat/
lav-ō || mē lav-ō || lav-at || sē lavāt
wash-1s.PRES.ACT.IND || 1s.ACC wash-1s.PRES.ACT.IND || wash-3s.PRES.ACT.IND || 3.REFL.ACC wash-3s.PRES.ACT.IND

Latin only has 1 reflexive pronoun, , which is only used in the third person for both singular and plural. The other persons just use their generic pronouns.
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Hakaku »

:jpn: Japanese

Japanese only uses one verb: 洗う arau "wash". Since pronouns aren't normally marked, arau on its own can mean both "I wash" and "He washes" But for explicitness you could say:

私は洗う。/彼は洗う。
watashi wa ara-u. / ka-re wa ara-u.
1 TOP wash-TERMINAL / 3.DIST-PN TOP wash-TERMINAL
"I wash / He/She washes"

Though it's normally used transitively, so an object is specified before the verb using the accusative case marker を o. This means the reflexive form is circumvented by specifying the referent as an object: in this case, using the noun 体 karada "body".

体を洗う。
karada o ara-u.
body ACC wash-TERMINAL
"wash one's body", "wash oneself" (I, he, she, they, etc.)

私は体を洗う。/彼は体を洗う。
watashi wa karada o ara-u. / ka-re wa karada o ara-u.
1 TOP body ACC wash-TERMINAL / 3.DIST-PN TOP body ACC wash-TERMINAL
"I wash myself / He washes himself, She washes herself"

Switch 洗う arau to 洗います araimasu for the polite form. Their progressive counterparts would be: 洗っている aratteiru and 洗っています aratteimasu "washing".

:ryu: Okinawan

Okinawan is functionally similar to Japanese, using the cognate transitive verb 洗いん 'arain "wash", and the noun 体 karata "body".

(我んねー・彼れー)体洗いん。
(wannee / 'a-ree) karata 'ara-i-n
(1.TOP / 3.DIST-PN.TOP) body wash-NOM-TERMINAL
"(I) wash myself", "(He) washes himself", "(She) washes herself"; "wash one's body", "wash oneself"
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Xing »

Reflexives become more fun when you have embedded clauses or other constructions more advanced than "Subject verbed object" vs "Subject verbed itself".

*In some languages, reflexive pronouns must refer to a subject. In others, they don't have to.
*In some languages, reflexive pronouns must refer to something in the same clause (relevant if it appears in an embedded clause).

How do you distinguish between:

Sue said that Bill revealed Mary to herself

Sue said that Bill revealed Mary to her.

Or more generally, how do you express sentences like:

A said that B revealed C to REFL:

Where:
REFL may or must refer to A
REFL may or must refer to B
REFL may or must refer to C


(I haven't really figured it out yet for my lang(s)).


EDIT: I found an interesting piece on reflexive constructions in Oceanic langs.

It also deals a bit with some grammatical constructions that often overlap with reflexives:
-Reciprocal constructions
-Middle voice constructios
-Intensifiers
Last edited by Xing on 31 Oct 2011 18:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Chagen »

Kron would just alternate between directly using the noun's name and the pronoun.

As in:

"Sue said that Bill revealed Mary to Mary"
And
"Sue said that Bill revealed Mary to her/Sue"
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Xing »

Chagen wrote:Kron would just alternate between directly using the noun's name and the pronoun.

As in:

"Sue said that Bill revealed Mary to Mary"
And
"Sue said that Bill revealed Mary to her/Sue"
If you only say "Sue said that Bill revealed Mary to REFL", what would REFL refer to?
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Chagen »

There are no reflexives in Kron. You would simply use "Rin" ("She"-literally, "woman"). Using "Rin" would always refer to Sue. If the "reflexive" was Mary, then you simply state "Mary" again.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Xing »

For a transitive, non-reflexive meaning:

Xe kēna ā xī .... (something)
PRST wash ERG 3sg
'He washes ... (something)' (An object phrase is usually needed)
ʔe̞ 'ke̞ːn̪a aː ʔiː

For a reflexive meaning:

Xe kēna ā xī rei.
PRST wash ERG 3sg REFL
'He washes himself'
ʔe̞ 'ke̞ːn̪a aː ʔiː 'ɾe̞.i

Xe kēna xī.
PRST wash 3sg
'He washes (himself)' (a regular intransitive construction will, for many verbs, be interpreted as a reflexive construction)
ʔe̞ 'ke̞ːn̪a ʔiː
Last edited by Xing on 31 Oct 2011 18:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Xing »

Chagen wrote:There are no reflexives in Kron. You would simply use "Rin" ("She"-literally, "woman"). Using "Rin" would always refer to Sue. If the "reflexive" was Mary, then you simply state "Mary" again.
Can it not refer to the subject of the embedded clause?
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Chagen »

It could, but it's generally assumed not to.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Xing »

Chagen wrote:It could, but it's generally assumed not to.
OK, but must it refer to a subject?

What about a sentence like:

Sue told Maggie that Liza revealed Mary to her(self?)

Could 'her' refer to Maggie?
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Chagen »

In that sentence, "Rin" could refer to anybody. Most Kron speaker would just repeat the exact name of the person--"Sue told Maggie that Liza revealed Mary to Maggie".

If there are different pronouns, then they may be used: "Sue told Bill that Liza revealed Mary to him" would be fine because "Bill" has a different pronoun and therefore it's obvious who "him" is referring to.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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Re: Reflexives

Post by masako »

:con:

Kala:

na tlela
1S wash
I wash.

na'i tlela
1S.REFL wash
I wash myself.

ha tlela
3S wash
He washes.

ha'i tlela
3S.REFL wash
He washes himself.
g

o

n

e
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