Page 2 of 5

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 02:20
by Creyeditor
:con: Tauyur A Midu
1) Bitir yabuka yabuk.
['bi.tʃir jɔ.'bo.ga 'jɔ.buk]
Peter open-VERB door
Peter opens the door.

2) Yabuk yabuka.
['jɔ.buk jɔ.'bo.ga]
door open-VERB
The door opens.

3) Ma yabuka yabuk.
[ma jɔ.'bo.ga 'jɔ.buk]
someone open-VERB door
The door is opened.

4) Ma, tik ra Bitir, yabuka yabuk.
[ma tʃik ra 'bi.tʃir, jɔ.'bo.ga 'jɔ.buk]
someone 3.SG be-VERB Peter open-VERB door
The door is opened by Peter

5) Yabuk yabuka tiku.
['jɔ.buk jɔ.'bo.ga tʃøku]
door open-VERB 3.SG-OBL
The door opens itself.

6) Bitir va Dinun yabuka yabuk.
['bi.tʃir va 'dʒø.nun jɔ.'bo.ga 'jɔ.buk]
Peter do John open-VERB door
Peter makes John open the door.

7) Bitir laikuya.
['bi.tʃir lɔɪ̯.ku.ja]
Peter open-VERB
Peter opens.

I tried to transcribe Peter and John as well as possible. Didn't really work [:D]
The verbs are derived from nouns and since "to open" is derived from "door", this verb without an object would imply that you opened a door or a window. <Laikuya> is derived from <Laikuy> meaning "coconut" and means "to open" or "to crack".

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 12:21
by Golahet
What about instruments? I propose the following additional challenges:


8) The key opened the door. [instrument as subject]

9) Peter opened the door with the key. [agent subject and instrument object]

10) The key opened. [instrument as subject, no other argument]

11) Peter opened with the key. [agent and instrument, no patient]

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 12:50
by ABC
Nolikan

1) Peter opened the door.
Pitaril sered mokate.
Peter-ERG door open.PST.3
2) The door opened, 3) The door was opened.
Sered mokate.
door open.PST.3

4) The door was opened by Peter - differs from 1) only in word order
Sered Pitaril mokate.
door Peter-ERG open.PST.3

5) The door opened itself.
Sered mokatera.
door open.PST.3-REFL
6) Peter made John open the door. - literally "Peter led John into opening the door" (perhaps I could invent something better)
Pitaril Jan serdo mokisas tibata
Peter-ERG John door-GEN open-NMLZ-DAT lead.PST.3
7) Peter opened.
Pitar omokate.
Peter ANTIP-open.PST.3

8) The key opened the door. [instrument as subject]
Sered yahebo šum mokate
door key-GEN use-LOC open.PST.3
9)Peter opened the door with the key. [agent subject and instrument object]
Pitaril sered yahebo šum mokate
Peter-ERG door key-GEN use-LOC open.PST.3
10) The key opened. [instrument as subject, no other argument]
Probably impossible
11) Peter opened with the key. [agent and instrument, no patient]
Pitar yahebo šum omokate
Peter key-GEN use-LOC ANTIP-open.PST.3

This thread made me invent two new words.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 17:09
by Iron
1) Peter opened the door.
Ezodako Piter izotojat.
['ezodɑko 'piter 'izotojɑt]
PST.open.3SG Peter ACC.door

2) The door opened.
Neejezodako izotoja.
['neːjezodɑko 'izotojɑ]
PST.open.3SG door

3) The door was opened.
Same as (2).

4) The door was opened by Peter
Neejezodako Piterk izotoja.
['neːjezodɑko 'piterk 'izotojɑ]
PST.open.3SG INS.peter door

5) The door opened itself.
Neejezodakojana izotoja.
['neːjezodɑkojɑnɑ 'izotojɑ]
PST.open-self.3SG door

6) Peter made John open the door.
Okjanarako Piter Džohnt ezodak izotojat.
['okjɑnɑrɑko 'piter 'dʒɔnt 'ezodɑk 'izotojɑt]
PST.force.3SG Peter ACC.John INF.open ACC.door

7) Peter opened.
Ezodako Piter.
['ezodɑko 'piter]
PST.open.3SG Peter

I transliterated the names as they are in English, obviously.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 18 Nov 2012 17:01
by kiwikami
:con: HyPry

1) Peter opened the door.
Co íéıoupìtr ıì Seɫ cı eɴðıeftım.
DEF-ERG ERG-Peter timeline[3]-personal\PST open DEF-ACC ACC-door .

2) The door opened.
Ðì Seɫ c ðeftım.
timeline[manmade_thing]-personal\PST open DEF door .

3) The door was opened.
Ca eɴðafftım ðì Séɫ.
DEF-‘ACC_PASS’ ‘ACC_PASS’-door timeline[manmade_thing]-personal\PST open\PASS .

4) The door was opened by Peter.
Ca eɴðafftım ðì Séɫ ce íéıœpìtr.
DEF-‘ACC_PASS’ ‘ACC_PASS’-door timeline[manmade_thing]-personal\PST open\PASS DEF-‘ERG_PASS’ ‘ERG_PASS’-Peter .

5) The door opened itself.
C ðeftım ðì Sèɫ.
DEF door timeline[manmade_thing]-personal\PST open\REFL .

6) Peter made John open the door.
Co íéıoupìtr ıì ıı Seɫ Zeɫ cı eɴðıeftım ca íéıafʧon.
DEF-ERG ERG-Peter timeline[3]-personal\PST timeline[3]-personal open open DEF-ACC ACC-door DEF-‘ACC_PASS’ ‘ACC_PASS’-John .

7) Peter opened (something).
Co íéıoupìtr ıì Seɫ.
DEF-ERG ERG-Peter timeline[3]-personal\PST open .

8) The key opened the door.
Co ıɣoumler ɣì Seɫ cı eɴðıeftım.
DEF-ERG ERG-key timeline[tool]-personal\PST open DEF-ACC ACC-door .

9) Peter opened the door with the key.
Co íéıoupìtr ıì Seɫ cı eɴðıeftım cou lımlerθu.
DEF-ERG ERG-Peter timeline[3]-personal\PST open DEF-ACC ACC-door DEF-‘RELATIONAL’ key-INS .

10) The key opened (something).
Co ıɣoumler ɣì Seɫ.
DEF-ERG ERG-key timeline[tool]-personal\PST open .

11) Peter opened (something) with the key.
Co íéıoupìtr ıì Seɫ cou lımlerθu.
DEF-ERG ERG-Peter timeline[3]-personal\PST open DEF-‘RELATIONAL’ key-INS .

[ramble] Word order here is very variable, but the newest or most important information is generally last, so these are (for the most part) the most probable forms of the sentences, though #2 is just as likely to be C ðeftım ðì Seɫ (and as a native speaker of an SVO language, I, personally, would naturally phrase it as such). The names used would normally be translations of the meanings of the names "Peter" and "John": "stone" and "God is gracious" (or something thereabouts) respectively. But I was lazy, so I went with a straight transcription. Also, I greatly simplified the gloss here. I don’t normally ignore the ‘state’ declensions for nouns, since they’re rather important, but they also needlessly complicate things and I've become rather sick of it. The bits of the gloss that are in quotes are the bits that don't really gloss properly or easily. Sorry about that. [/ramble]

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 18 Nov 2012 19:38
by ol bofosh
:con: Alahithian

Ol peter vasawk pa enep.
[oɭ ˈpi.teɾ ˈva.sawk pa ˈe.ɳep]
ol Peter vasaw-k pa enep
VOC peter open-PST DEF door

Peter opened the door.

Vasawk pa enep.
[ˈva.sawk pa ˈeɳep]
vasaw-k pa enep
open-PST DEF door

The door opened.

Vasawk pa enep.
[ˈva.sawk pa ˈe.ɳep]
vasaw-k pa enep
open-PST DEF door

The door was opened.

Vasawk pa enep ol peter zin.
[ˈva.sawk pa ˈe.ɳep oɭ ˈpi.teɾ ziɳ]
vasaw-k pa enep ol peter zin
open-PST DEF door PR Peter by

The door was opened by Peter

Pa enep oño vasawk
[pa ˈe.ɳep ˈo.ŋo ˈva.sawk]
Pa enep oñ-o vasaw-k
DEF door 3s-REFL open-PST

The door opened itself.

Ol peter nepiwk ol john vasawk pa enep.
[oɭ ˈpi.teɾ ˈɳe.piwk oɭ ɖʐoɳ ˈva.sawk pa ˈe.ɳep]
ol peter nepiw-k ol john vasaw-k pa enep
PR Peter cause-PST PR John open-PST DEF door

Peter made John open the door.

Ol peter vasawk.
[oɭ ˈpi.teɾ ˈva.sawk]
ol peter vasawk
PR Peter open-PST

Peter opened.

Edit: it's all in the word order. SV is active, VS is passive.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 20 Nov 2012 00:30
by Creyeditor
I just found an old project of mine that marks basically everything obligatorily.

1) Peter pontsada rodblä.
Peter pon-tsa-da rod-blä
Peter open-PST-ACT door-ACC
Peter opened the door.

2) Rodbra pontsado.
Rod-bra pon-tsa-do
door-NOM open-PST-MIDDLE
The door opened.

3) Rodbra pontsadi.
Rod-bra pon-tsa-di.
door-NOM open-PST-PASS
The door was opened.

4) Rodbra pontsadi Peterbrei.
Rod-bra pon-tsa-di Peter-brei
door-NOM open-PST-PASS Peter-PREPOSITIONAL CASE
The door was opened by Peter.

5) Rodbra pontsade.
Rod-bra pon-tsa-de
Door-NOM open-PST-REFL
The door opened itself.

6) Peter pontsarou rodblä Johnblai.
Peter pon-tsa-rou rod-blä John-blai.
Peter open-PST-CAUS door-ACC John-DAT
Peter made John open the door.

7) Peter pontsavo.
Peter pon-tsa-vo
Peter open-PST-INTR
Peter opened.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 20 Nov 2012 07:19
by Aseca
Pitó ñustrem saúta. [pi.teʊ.ŋʊs.treɴ.sɔːta]
1) Peter opened the door.

ñustráh saúta. [ŋʊst.rah.sɔːta]
2) The door opened.

ñustrod asúyuta. [ŋʊst.rɔ.dʌ.su.jʊ.tə]
3) The door was opened.

Pitvañ ñustrod asúyuta. [pit.ʋəŋːʊst.rɔ.dʌ.su.jʊ.tə]
4) The door was opened by Peter

ñustror asaútá. [ŋʊst.rɔ.rʌ.sɔːta]
5) The door opened itself.

Pitvaj Jono ñustrem asúyuta. [pit.ʋəʔ.ɟo.no.ŋʊst.rɛ.mʌ.su.jʊ.tə]
6) Peter made John open the door.

Pitó 'saúta. [Pi.təʊ.sɔːtə]
7) Peter opened.

Aloha uses a complete table of voices and modals. This exercise just happens to use two of them, including the simple past form as below:
verb(med)+u[psn]a - simple past.
verb(wk)+yu[psn]a - passive/causative past form.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 23 Nov 2012 02:00
by H.Á.
:con: Naniuk

Peterega kuıírre upózta.
Peter-ERG.PST door-ABS be_open-CAUS=3.PST
= Peter opened the door.
= The door was opened by Peter.

Kuıírre upóz.
door-ABS be_open-3.PST
= The door opened/The door is open.

Aga kuıírre upózta.
Ø-ERG.PST door-ABS be_open-CAUS-3.PST
= The door was opened.

Kuıírreme ax upózta.
door-ERG.PST REFL be_open-CAUS-3.PST
= The door opened itself.

Peterega Tsonoga kuıírre upóztak tata.
Peter-ERG.PST John-ERG.PST door-ABS be_open-CAUS-3.NPST CNJ.ABS CAUS.PST-3.PST
= Peter made John open the door.

Peterega upóztaja.
Peter-ERG.PST be_open-CAUS-ANTIP-3.PST
= Peter opened (sth).

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 27 Nov 2012 15:40
by Lao Kou
Image Géarthnuns

Péters lé cha höilkansat tail.
['petɛɾs 'le tʃa højl'kãsat 'tajl]
Peter-NOM AUX.PAST DEF door-ACC open
Peter opened the door.

Cha höilkans lé tail.
[tʃa højl'kãs 'le 'tajl]
DEF door-NOM AUX.PAST open
The door opened.

Cha höilkans lét tail.
[tʃa højl'kãs 'let 'tajl]
DEF door-NOM AUX.PAST.PASS open
The door was opened.

Cha höilkans lét Pétersaun tail.
[tʃa højl'kãs 'let pe'tɛɾsɔn 'tajl]
DEF door-NOM AUX.PAST.PASS Peter-INSTR open
The door was opened by Peter.

Cha höilkans lés tail. (unlikely sentence)
[tʃa højl'kãs 'les 'tajl]
DEF door-NOM AUX.PAST.REFL open
The door opened itself.

Péters lén Íöhansat höi cha höilkansat tail.
['petɛɾs 'len jø'hãsat høj tʃa højl'kãsat 'tajl]
Peter-NOM AUX.PAST.CAUS John-ACC PTCL DEF door-ACC open
Peter made John open the door.

Péters lé cha höilkansat chü hüksün tail.
['petɛɾs 'le tʃa højl'kãsat tʃy 'hyksyn 'tajl]
Peter-NOM AUX.PAST DEF door-ACC DEF key-INSTR open
Peter opened the door with the key.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 02 Mar 2013 10:24
by Omzinesý
Attempts in Kahichali

1) Peter opened the door.
Kàjutlàma Pèteri síntu.
kà-ju-t<l>àm-a pèteri sintu
PERFV.PAST-TRNS.by_hand-<VOL>open-POSIT.INTERN p.NOM door.ABS

2) The door opened.
Kàdam-u síntu.
kà-ø-tàm-u síntu
PERFV.PAST-EVID-open-POSIT.EGOPH door.ABS

3) The door was opened.
Must think about that.

4) The door was opened by Peter
Because ‘door’ is not intelligent, the following sentence is somewhat anomalous.

Kà’dam-u síntu phèteri.
kà-‘-tàm-e síntu p<h>èteri
PERFV.PAST-NEC-open-EXT.POSIT door.ABS <CAUS>p


5) The door opened itself.
I’ve to think about the middle-class marker

6) Peter made John open the door.
This is not a causative, but something like: “John had to open the door because of Peter.”

Kàjutàma Phèteri Čòni síntu.
kà-ju-‘-tàm-e p<h>èteri čòni sintu
PERFV.PAST-TRNS.by_hand-NEC-open-POSIT.EXT p.NOM door.ABS


7) Peter opened. (=opened something, not that he opened up himself)
The same as 1) but without an object.

Kàjutlàma Pèteri.
kà-ju-t<l>àm-a pèteri.
PERFV.PAST-TRNS.by_hand-<VOL>open-POSIT.INTERN p.NOM


VOL - volitional mood
NEC - necessative mood
EVID - evidential mood

INTERN - internal control
EXT - external control
EGOPH - egophoric (speaker) control

CAUS - causative case

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 03 Mar 2013 00:20
by Dormouse559
Here are the sentences in Selvesco. There are two possible forms for #2, and #7 doesn't work without modification.

1)
Piedro abrí el puort.
[ˈpidɾɔ͡aˌbɾe͡ɛl ˈpuɾt]
[ˈpidɾ aˈbɾe li ˈpuɾt]
Peter open-PRET.3.SG the.OBL.F door-OBL.

Peter opened the door.

2)
La puorta se abrí.
[la ˈpuɾta sɛ͡aˈbɾe]
[la ˈpuɾta saˈbɾe]
The.NOM.F door.NOM REFL.3 open-PRET.3.SG.

The door opened. (standard/informal)

La puorta abrentesé.
[la ˈpuɾtaːbɾɛntɛˈzɛ]
[la ˈpuɾtaːbɾə̃tiˈze]
The.NOM.F door.NOM open-PRS_PTCP-REFL-PRET.3.SG.

The door opened. (formal)

3)
La puorta se abrí.
[la ˈpuɾta sɛ͡aˈbɾe]
[la ˈpuɾta saˈbɾe]
The.NOM.F door.NOM REFL.3 open-PRET.3.SG.

The door was opened.

4)
La puorta fue avierta per Piedro.
[la ˈpuɾta ˈfʊɛ͡aˌviɾta pɛɾ ˈpidɾɔ]
[la ˈpuɾta ˈfwe͡aˌviɾta pəɾ ˈpidɾ]
The.NOM.F door.NOM be.PRET.3.SG open-PST_PTCP-F by Peter.

The door was opened by Peter.

5)
La puorta se abrí essa-medesma.
[la ˈpuɾta sɛ͡aˈbɾeɛsa mɛˈdɛsma]
[la ˈpuɾta saˈbɾiːsa miˈdeːma]
The.NOM.F door.NOM REFL.3 open-PRET.3.SG itself.F.

The door opened itself.

6)
Piedro fecé Gzoani ca abra el puort.
[ˈpidɾɔ fɛˈt͡ɕɛ d͡ʑɔˈanɪ ˈkaːbɾaɛl ˈpuɾt]
[ˈpidɾə‿fiˈt͡ɕe d͡ʑuˈani ˈkaːbɾa li ˈpuɾt]
Peter make-PRET.3.SG John-OBL that open-SBJV.3.SG the.OBL.F door-OBL.

Peter made John open the door.

7) Not possible unmodified.
Piedro abrí alqué.
[ˈpidɾɔ͡aˌbɾe͡alˌkɛ]
[ˈpidɾ aˈbɾe͡awˌke]
Peter open-PRET.3.SG something.

Peter opened something.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 03 Mar 2013 11:20
by atman
Image Atlantika

1. Peter opened the door.
Pedros turan yanishe. (Peter door-ACC PAST-open-3SG)
(regular "y" augment on verbs that start with a, e, o, u)

2. The door opened.
Tura twaton yanishe. (door itself-ACC PAST-open-3SG)
OR
Tura yanikte. (door PAST-open-MEDIOPASS-3SG)

3. The door was opened.
Tura yanikte. (door PAST-open-MEDIOPASS-3SG)

4. The door was opened by Peter.
Tura Pedrishak yenikte. (door Peter-AGENT PAST-open-MEDIOPASS-3SG)
(Agent of a passive verb has its own dedicated case)

5. The door opened itself.
Same options as 2.

6. Peter made John open the door.
Pedros eprase hin Yanis turan yanishat. (Peter PAST-make-3SG so-that John door-ACC PAST-open-SUBJ-3SG
OR one of my favorite constructions, the Atlantean synthetic causative:
Pedros Yanif turan yanishave. (Peter John-INSTR door-ACC PAST-open-CAUS-3SG

7. Peter opened.
Pedros yanishe.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 03 Mar 2013 13:20
by nmn
1) Peter opened the door.
Peter umшл rjo föm.
Peter open PST door
2) The door opened.
Föm mъшл rjo.
door open PST
3) The door was opened.
Föm umшл rjo mej.
door open PST PAS
4) The door was opened by Peter
Föm umшл rjo mej Peter.
door open PST PAS Peter
5) The door opened itself.
Föm mъшл rjo.
door open PST
6) Peter made John open the door.
Peter um rjo Ջon sej (mow)umшл föm.
Peter make PST John towards (state)open door.
7) Peter opened. (=opened something, not that he opened up himself)
Peter umшл rjo.
Peter open PST.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 03 Mar 2013 18:24
by Chagen
:con: Pazmat

1) Pitur Zelratos xufzjo.
peter door-ACC open-PST-3SGM

2) Zelrat xufzjid.
door open-PST-3SGNEU

3) Zelratri xufibus yazj.
door-ABSOL open-PTCPL.TRANS be-PST

4) Zelratri Piturīdh xufibus yazj.
door-ABSOL peter-LOC open-PTCPL.TANS be-PST

5) Zelrat Sza xufzjid.
door 3SGNEU.ACC open-PST-3SGNEU

6) Pitur na Gjonūx Zelratri xufiya sezjo.
peter REl john-ERG door-ABSOL open-INFIN have-PST-3SGM
(Lit. "Peter had that John opened the door)

7) Pitur Naz xufizjo.
peter 4TH.ACC open-PST-3SGM
(Lit. "Peter opened something")

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 03 Mar 2013 20:41
by Xing
Time for a Wakeu-update:

The first sentence would be rendered roughly as before:

(1) Ko rike a Pita ta kope.
PFV open ERG Peter SG door

The second and third will also be (more or less) unchanged.

(2) (3) Ko rike ta kope.
PFV open SG door

Passives with an explicit agent will use the preposition me instead of a:

(4) Ko rike ta kope me Pita.
PFV open SG door INSTR Peter

Reflexives will still use the reflexive/emphatic pronoun rei

(5a) Ko rike a ta kopi rei.
PFV open ERG SG door REFL
(5b) Ko rike ta kopi me rei.
PFV open SG door INSTR REFL
(5c) Ko rike rei ta kopi.
PFV open REFL?? SG door

I'm not sure if any one of 5 a-c would be more common or preferred over the others, or if all of them should be considered more or less equal.

5b would basically be a kind of passive sentence: "The door was opened by itself", or something.

In 5c, I think rei should not be treated as a direct object, but perhaps as a kind of adverb.

I have to think more about the causative; I'm not really sure what to do with it now. Perhaps it must be formed in some periphrastic way ("Peter caused that John opened the door"; but with word-order and cases etc. according to Wakeu grammar).

The antipassive will remain the same:

(7) Ko kerike Pita.
PFV ANTIPASS.open Peter

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 04 Mar 2013 02:47
by Lambuzhao
If you say these in creaky voice, does that mean that the door needs oil?

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 04 Mar 2013 03:58
by kiwikami
Lambuzhao wrote:If you say these in creaky voice, does that mean that the door needs oil?
[+1]

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 14 Mar 2013 15:55
by clawgrip
:con: Himmaswa:

1.
Image
Piahter fpurng durm.
Peter open door
Peter opened the door.

2.
Image
Durm fpurng.
door open
The door opened.

3.
Image / Image
Durm fpurng. / Logeuu-ga fpurng durm.
door open / someone open door
The door was opened.

4.
Image
Durm Piahter fpurng.
door Peter open
The door was opened by Peter

5.
Image
Durm fpurng dgorp.
Door open happen
The door opened itself.

6.
Image
Jaa’aon ntey Piahter fpurng durm.
John cause Peter open door
Peter made John open the door.

7.
Image
Piahter fpurng.
Peter open
Peter opened.

Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Posted: 26 Aug 2013 14:24
by zyx3166
Roguel:
1.Pedru mutor'utek.
Peter door-open-3SG
2.Mutor utek.
door open-3SG
3.Mutor utpetek.
door open-PASS-3SG
4.Mutor Pedruta utpetek.
door Peter-ACC open-PASS-3SG
5.Mutor utek.
door open-3SG
6.Pedru Juanta mutor'utadek.
Peter John-ACC door-open-CAUS-3SG
7.Pedru utek.
Peter open-3SG