The snowball game: translating with only 625 words

A forum for translations, translation challenges etc. Good place to increase your conlang's vocabulary.
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: The snowball game: translating with only 625 words

Post by Lao Kou »

211. Fökh la vau zhömauíöms fítem, arzhö shahöcheths gnadheth, chethet sí lé sírü chü gefrölímarangíksüv akaz sho, nöi.
3SG-NOM AUX.PRES DEF.NEG friend-NOM.NEG 1SG.POSS.ADJ-NOM.NEG, but someone-NOM mere-NOM, REL-ACC 1SG-NOM AUX.PAST once DEF library-LOC meet PTCL, be
He's not my friend, he's just someone I met once at the library.

212. Fap lé helkeveçö hüdravnath sho, sanab rönjöthkölönab kfezhö, cha jvengehans Rakhélsís lé cha rhensat sílínat, arsfen seth lav söi tavatsöik shauçíhötöik hereçkeveçö haudravnath sho, aukhbrelü thrinawazh, gaiçö síl lé sanat chü chívaksüb kéçö hedínagdez.
3SG-NOM.NEG AUX.PAST thus do-IMP PTCL, 3SG-POST tell.PresPRF.DATPASS.PTPL-POST despite, DEF neighbor-NOM Rachel-GEN AUX.PAST DEF breast-ACC 3SG.POSS.ADJ-ACC, as 3SG AUX.PRES.IMPERS INDEF tomato-DAT fresh-DAT thus do-SPEC PTCL, nevertheless squeeze, so 3SG-NOM AUX.PAST 3SG-ACC DEF window-POST through throw.out-CONCL
Despite being told not to, Rachel's neighbor squeezed her breast anyway, as you might a fresh tomato, so she threw him out the window.
PTSnoop wrote:210. Lakøthi sørakaingaph nefizuarınthʉli thik - nia narauia ecáføng tuáangaln phuthak?
goodsmell forge-3-GOOD ice-container-around something - or high-TEMP ADJ-many beef-0-BAD this-inside ?
Something in the refrigerator doesn't smell quite right -- how long has that beef been in there?
This one throws me for a bit of a loop. What's happening here? How does a foodstuff going off and smelling like your gran's unwashed armpit work out to "goodsmell" and a verb, stative or resultative, tagged "GOOD"? Sarcastic understatement?
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
User avatar
PTSnoop
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 153
Joined: 02 May 2013 00:07

Re: The snowball game: translating with only 625 words

Post by PTSnoop »

Lao Kou wrote:This one throws me for a bit of a loop. What's happening here? How does a foodstuff going off and smelling like your gran's unwashed armpit work out to "goodsmell" and a verb, stative or resultative, tagged "GOOD"? Sarcastic understatement?
Yeah, what we have here is a slightly idiomatic phrase that doesn't convey itself all that well with just a straight gloss. What we've got here are the words:

lakothi - the smell of meat being cooked; other similarly pleasing aromas.
sørakain - lit. "put under", this word can cover quite a wide semantic space, but in this case it's used in the sense of "substitute, forge, counterfeit".
nefizuarın - icebox, refridgerator.
-thʉli - surrounding, encircling.
thik - something.

So the phrase "Lakøthi sørakaingaph tuak" [ goodsmell forge-3-GOOD meat ] would literally mean "The meat is making a counterfeit aroma" - as in "that cooking seems like it smells good, but there's a slight wrongness to the smell (that only an expert charcutier like me would recognise) that reveals to me that the meat itself is actually going to give you food poisoning". And given sufficient time and sufficient semantic drift as more people try to emulate the historic charcutiers, the phrase has shifted into "I don't like the smell of that food" and eventually just generally "that smells bad".

And yes, the -GOOD suffix on the verb there was a typo, well spotted. But since I've already written it down, I think I'll leave it as an idiomatic thing. Possibly it comes from some larger original context - "There's something wrong here, my apprentice - my intuition tells me so. But I'm not sure what... your fire seems fine, your vegetables have been adequately prepared, your... Ah, I've found it. Your meat is making a counterfeit aroma." As in, it's not good that you'll have to find a new steak and start again, but it is good that the master has found the cause of his suspicion (and had an opportunity to demonstrate his vast expertise).

And for completeness - to say that a smell is "in" something would seem an odd turn of phrase in Necthiøth. The smell of the rotten meat isn't *inside* the meat, or else your nose would also need to be inside the meat to smell anything. No, the smell of the meat is *around* the meat. And so this turn of phrase has spread to any kind of description of where a smell is, even if you can't really smell anything unless you've opened the fridge door. And so, the smell is "nefizuarınthʉli" [ ice-container-around ] instead of "nefizuarınrá" [ ice-container-LOC ].

212. Areitzel, fe tai laingínol, pinguá kiazmakhi esnøukhenglø emúphai, søp karʉplorıph no tanol .
[ ʔáʁejtʃel, fe taj lájŋinol, piŋwá kjáʃmɛkʰi ʔésnøwkʰeŋlø ʔemúpʰaj, søp káʁyploʁɨpʰ no tánol . ]
a-Reitzel, fe tai laingín-no-l, pinnguá kiaz-nga-khi e-snønukh-e-nglø e-múphai, søp krʉphlo-aph no pta-no-l .
TOPIC-Rachel, neighbour despite dissuade-3SG-TOPICGOOD, breast squeeze-3-RELBAD ADJ-tomato-GEN-like ADJ-young, so window-through 3SG throw-3SG-TOPICGOOD.

Despite being told not to, Rachel's neighbor squeezed her breast anyway, as you might a fresh tomato, so she threw him out the window.

213. Ainaunte ui nangápuǿøfø khunoiuph, clúuna cuam enga tlʉclúunalıløn tøs, ngu siang nølıngak.
[ ʔájnawnte wí naŋapwø:fø kʰúnojupʰ, xlú:na xwam ʔéŋa tlyxlú:nalɨløn tøs, ŋu sjaŋ nølɨŋák . ]
a-inaumte ui nangáp-uøffø khu-no-iu-ph, clúphna cuam e-nga thlʉl-clúphna-no-lø-n tøs, ngú siang nø-no-ngak.
TOPIC-someone INDEF bridge-death over-3SG-OPT-GOOD, question three ADJ-this reply-question-3SG-TOPICOPT-BAD 1SG, until otherside see-3SG-TOPICAMBIV.

He who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: The snowball game: translating with only 625 words

Post by Lao Kou »

213. Gníeths lüv cha Ülíhagensat ba sföngez üraf sho, feg lüv fík föik küdhsöich hengedhöich toudhöich, puskeshtanö seth lív chöi hetsöit knöbetöit hautel sho, ba ousüth ten.
whoever-NOM AUX.TRANSC.IMPERS DEF death.bridge PTCL cross want PTCL, 3SG-NOM.NEG AUX.TRANS.IMPERS 1SG-DAT.NEG INDEF.PL.NEG question-ACC.PL.NEG this-ACC.PL.NEG three-ACC.PL.NEG, before 3SG-NOM AUX.FUT.IMPERS DEF side-ACC opposite-ACC see-SPEC PTCL, PTCL answer must
He who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.

214. Cha vöthesegensav ailenav helkenav, che gdíasözalöths lé, gü chau teshers nevaler lé, chaurauk seth löi sök víöbsöch cha zhefüdönsav íömé ba gamez tsobal sho, cha mvönsav sethenav sethala'u sethet kodo höihösef sho, tel.
DEF autumn.morning-LOC cool-LOC that-LOC, DEF fisherman-NOM AUX.PRES, CONJ DEF cat-NOM gray-NOM AUX.PAST, REL-DAT 3SG-NOM AUX.PastPRF INDEF.PL fish-ACC.PL DEF beach-LOC always PTCL give be.accustomed PTCL, DEF boat-LOC 3SG.POSS.ADJ-LOC sit.PresPTPL-ADV 3SG-ACC ADVwait-DISC PTCL, see
On that cool autumn morning, the fisherman saw that the gray cat he had always given fish to on the beach was instead sitting and waiting for him on his boat.
PTSnoop wrote:And yes, the -GOOD suffix on the verb there was a typo, well spotted. But since I've already written it down, I think I'll leave it as an idiomatic thing. Possibly it comes from some larger original context - "There's something wrong here, my apprentice - my intuition tells me so. But I'm not sure what... your fire seems fine, your vegetables have been adequately prepared, your... Ah, I've found it. Your meat is making a counterfeit aroma." As in, it's not good that you'll have to find a new steak and start again, but it is good that the master has found the cause of his suspicion (and had an opportunity to demonstrate his vast expertise).
It's also "good" he caught it so your guests aren't buckled over with an explosive case of the trots. --- So, the GOOD/BAD divide is not limited to evaluations of the speaker (or what I assume s/he may empathically assume will be the evaluations of the listener), but may also include collective cultural assessments with backstory?
And for completeness - to say that a smell is "in" something would seem an odd turn of phrase in Necthiøth. The smell of the rotten meat isn't *inside* the meat, or else your nose would also need to be inside the meat to smell anything. No, the smell of the meat is *around* the meat. And so this turn of phrase has spread to any kind of description of where a smell is, even if you can't really smell anything unless you've opened the fridge door. And so, the smell is "nefizuarınthʉli" [ ice-container-around ] instead of "nefizuarınrá" [ ice-container-LOC ].
Perfectly understandable. Until the seal is broken, you wouldn't notice or report the offending odor, and once the seal is broken, depending on how far along it is pungency-wise, the smell is "around" in fairly short order. The source of stench may be "in" something but prior to ziploc technology, smells kinda have this way of making their way "around"; the cowpie may be "in" the barn, but I think that little matters at fifty paces.... On the other hand, that is based on speaker's location. What if speaker is in the container, too. So, no, the nose isn't in the meat, but speaker and listener could both be "in" a cold store or "in" the barn with the odor and not on the outside sniffing in, in which case we're assuming facts not in evidence that the smell extends beyond us. Unless "around here" also has an interior sense in Necthiøth, like English. "I say, Old Sport, what is that smell of counterfeit shishkebab in here?" becomes, "I say, Old Sport, what is that smell of counterfeit shishkebab around here/us?" (which might then imply the problem could be you, since I know I showered this morning).
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
User avatar
PTSnoop
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 153
Joined: 02 May 2013 00:07

Re: The snowball game: translating with only 625 words

Post by PTSnoop »

214. Asícørik, khʉsia nee eruiákh snóoftsengal paitará, ngaslaia etháic eníuof kølará phane náungac, uecngac phania .
[ ʔásixøʁik, kʰysjá ne: ʔeʁujákʰ snó:ftseŋal pajtaʁá, ŋáslaja ʔetʰájx ʔɪníwof kølaʁá pʰáne náwŋax, wéxŋax pʰɛnjá . ]
a-sícorik, khus-ia niáu e-ruiékh nsof-thse-nga-l pait-rá, ngazla-ia e-tháic e-niuof køl-rá phán-e pnáu-nga-c, uec-nga-c phán-ie .
TOPIC-fisherman, every-TEMP cat ADJ-grey give-fish-3-TOPICGOOD beach-LOC, morning-TEMP ADJ-autumn ADJ-cold boat-LOC PREVTOPIC-GEN sit-3-RELGOOD, wait-3-RELGOOD PREVTOPIC-because.

On that cool autumn morning, the fisherman saw that the gray cat he had always given fish to on the beach was instead sitting and waiting for him on his boat.

214.Tiaphitøph éerasa auunoie kia kʉthia, nʉia snof éerasarı esáamang nølın erén tøs. Ngua.
[ tjápʰitøpʰ é:ʁasa ʔáwunoje kja kytʰjá, nyjá snof é:ʁasaʁɨ ʔésa:maŋ nølɨn ʔeʁén tøs . ŋwá . ]
tiáphi-tø-ph iáursa autngo-ie kie kuth-ie, nʉ-ia nsof iáursa-e e-saphmang nø-no-n e-rén tøs . ngua .
buy-1SG-GOOD book size-because NEG word-because, such-TEMP sell book-GEN ADJ-stale look-3SG-BAD ADJ-sharp 1SG. Meh.

The used book salesman gave me a long look when I bought a book because of its size instead of its words. Oh well.
Lao Kou wrote:So, the GOOD/BAD divide is not limited to evaluations of the speaker (or what I assume s/he may empathically assume will be the evaluations of the listener), but may also include collective cultural assessments with backstory?
Yeah, why not. I'll probably limit it to a small group of idiomatic phrases, though - maybe ones that originally developed from quotations, where the original morphological markings were repeated along with the rest of the phrase.
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: The snowball game: translating with only 625 words

Post by Lao Kou »

215. Shtanö sí lé sí gefrölsít chí kförhölsíb vaçka zhö vík hakfalsíd vaçka jökfü vazh sho, chau çéhagefrölímnírs lé sít tushría'u dimtel. De, çü.
when 1SG-NOM AUX.PAST INDEF book-ACC DEF size-POST because.of and DEF.PL.NEG word-POST.PL.NEG because.of instead buy PTCL, DEF used.book.seller-NOM AUX.PAST 1SG-ACC disapproving-ADV look.at . well, okay
The used book salesman gave me a long look when I bought a book because of its size instead of its words. Oh well.

216. Vau dhvénamsauv vau gnöikadizalöms la höi vau dhvénamsauv ba kadiz vau gnöiürafalömsauk fnazhem nöi.
DEF.NEG party-LOC.NEG DEF.NEG NEG.go.PresPTPL-NOM.NEG AUX.PRES PTCL DEF.NEG party-LOC.NEG PTCL go DEF.NEG NEG.want.PresPTPL-DAT.NEG same-NOM.NEG be
Not going to the party is not the same as not wanting to go to the party.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
Post Reply