Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

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Systemzwang
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Systemzwang »

Shrdlu wrote:
Systemzwang wrote: är-passiv is not really smooth swedish. it sounds like someone who is incapable of keeping english interference out of their swedish would come up with.
That's the way I, as a native, have learnt to speak Swedish, so I dunno how it would be said otherwise. It only exists in that type of phrase,
In those, I, as a native, would say "ses" in both instances. Heck, depending on the context even a lexical change could be justified - "syns". A bli-passive could work, but would be more awkward.

If you did a corpus-linguistic survey on this, I genuinely bet the är-passive only appeared quite recently.
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zee
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by zee »

Taatuikkän

Toin stole
man eat-PRES
DCA: [toɪn stolɛ]
The man eats

Voin satăme
woman PASS-see-PRES
DCA: [voɪn sætwæmɛ]
The woman is seen

Toin stole ponde
man eat-PRES food-ACC
DCA: [toɪn stolɛ pondɛ]
The man eats the food

Pon satăme voinsŏe
food PASS-see-PRES woman-GEN
DCA: [pon sætwæmɛ voɪnswø]
The food is seen by the woman

Nulu

Lım tan
l<i>m t<a>n
man<SG> eat<3SG.SUBJ>
The man eats

Sın unas
s<i>n u-n<a>s
woman<SG> PASS-see<3SG.SUBJ>
The woman is seen

Lım tan tım
l<i>m t<a>n t<i>m
man<SG> eat<3SG.SUBJ> food<SG>
The man eats the food

Tım unas ıusın
t<i>m u-n<a>s iu-s<i>n
food<SG> PASS-see<3SG.SUBJ> GEN-woman<SG>
The food is seen by the woman
reírítí lixa kisti o lixati reí kisti · the river god controls the fish and the fish control the river – otísil (pdf)
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by kanejam »

1) Zuln'á tala'lu'.
man-ERG eat-3ANIM
The man eats.

2) Mil k'astu.
woman.ABS see
[Something] sees the woman.

3) Zuln'á gná tala'lu'.
man-ERG meal eat-3ANIM
The man eats the meal.

4) Gná tí k'astulu' miln'á.
meal TOP see-3ANIM woman-ERG
The food is seen by the woman. (It's the food that the woman sees.)

Ketzumin is pro-drop, with strict transit ivory on verbs and ergative alignment. These sentences are all resolved without the passive (I hope I can get away without it).
Iyionaku
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Yélian

1) The man eats.
A'broya muyet.
[aˈbrɔʃɐ ˈmuːʃɪt]
ANIM-man eat-3SG

2) The woman is seen.
An'áia valit.
[anˈai̩a̩ vaːlit]
ANIM-woman see-3SG.INV

3) The man eats the food.
A'broya muyet u'muyér.
[aˈbrɔʃɐ ˈmuːʃɪt ʊmuːˈʃer]
ANIM-man eat-3SG INAN-food

4) The food is seen by the woman.
U'muyer valit an'áia.
[ʊmuːˈʃer ˈvaːlit anˈai̩a̩]
INAN-food see-3SG.INV ANIM-woman
Last edited by Iyionaku on 29 Sep 2016 02:50, edited 1 time in total.
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alynnidalar
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by alynnidalar »

:con: Old Azen

1) Eret jēta.
man eat-PRS.3
The man eats.

2) Ølat gørtači.
woman see-PRS.3-NMZ
The woman is seen. (lit. the woman is "seen thing", plus case weirdness)

3) Eret alma jēta.
man food-ACC eat-PRS.3
The man eats the food.

4) Al ølatøl gørtači.
food woman-INSTR see-PRS.3-NMZ
The food is seen by a woman. (lit. the food is a "seen thing")
Plusquamperfekt
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Plusquamperfekt »

[quote="DanH34"]How do your natlangs/conlangs deal with them? Feel free to play fast-and-loose with the vocabulary if you like (it's only fair given my track-record).

:eng:
1) The man eats.
2) The woman is seen.
3) The man eats the food.
4) The food is seen by the woman.

:con: Miwonša - Nominative-accusative system

1) Waškan mičan.
man-NOM.SG eat-IPFV

2) Škonja žanjaran.
woman-NOM.SG see-PASS-IPFV

3) Waškan mičai mičan.
man-NOM.SG food-ACC.SG eat-IPFV

(This sentence sounds a little silly if you use the same root for "eat" and for "food" :D)

4) Miča žanjaran ka škonjak.
food-NOM.SG see-PASS-IPFV by woman-GEN.SG
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Caelian

1) The man eats.
Bordyek müstal.
[bɔɾˈdʲɛk mʏʃˈtʰal]
man.NOM eat.3SG

2) The woman is seen.
Janna cosin vüplin.
[jaˈna ʝɔˈʒɪn vʏpˈlɪn]
woman.NOM PAS see.3SG>3SG

3) The man eats the food.
Bordyek mostungel müstil.
[bɔɾˈdʲɛk mɔʃtʰʊˈŋɛl mʏʃtʰɪl]
man.NOM food.ACC eat.3SG>3SG

4) The food is seen by the woman.
Mostel jannunge cosin vüplin.
[moʃˈtʰɛl janʊˈŋɛ ʝɔˈʒɪn vʏpˈlɪn]
food.NOM woman.ACC PAS see.3SG>3SG
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Anto

1) The man eats.
Coko fezaj ton.
[ˈt͡ʃɔkʰɔ ˈfɛt͡saɪ̯ tʰɔn]
man eat 3.ANIM

2) The woman is seen.
Dje bupi jeza.
[cɛ ˈpuːpʰi ˈjɛt͡sa]
3.INDEF woman see

3) The man eats the food.
Coko malzaj jeza ton.
[ˈt͡ʃɔkʰɔ ˈmalt͡saɪ̯ ˈjɛt͡sa tʰɔn]
man food see 3.ANIM

4) The food is seen by the woman.
Malzaj, bupi jeza ton.
[ˈmalt͡saɪ̯, ˈpupʰi ˈjɛt͡sa tʰɔn]
food woman see 3.ANIM

Anto doesn't have a past tense and usually doesn't allow a different word order from the usual TOVS. The normal sentence "bupi malzaj jeza ton" would literally translate as "woman, food sees she". In this case, it is allowed to switch topic (bupi) and object (malzaj), because as malzaj is inanimate, the subject would otherwise have been dropped. "The food sees the woman" would hence be translated as "malzaj bupi jeza".
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Utseech

1) The man eats.
De bân ass.
[də bɚn as]
DEF man eat.3SG

2) The woman is seen.
De fru wirt geehech.
[də fɹuː wiɹt ˈgeːhɛç]
DEF woman AUX.PAS.3SG see.PP

3) The man eats the food.
De bân ass de dahrûg.
[də bɚːn as də ˈdaʰɹʊ˞g]
DEF man eat.3SG DEF food

4) The food is eaten by the woman.
De dahrûg wirt gejeech woch de fru.
[də ˈdaʰɹʊ˞g wiɹt ˈgəjeːç wɔχ də fɹuː]
DEF food AUX.PAS.3SG eat.PP by DEF woman
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by marvelous »

:con: Tasza

1) The man eats.
Ketí metl.
/Kɛ'ti mɛɬ/
male.human-ABS eat-3S.GNO.ANTIP

2) The woman is seen.
Jzusza né murna.
/ʐʊ'ʂa ne mʊ'ɳa/
female.human-LAT POST.LAT see-3P.GNO

3) The man eats the food.
Kedí metlusz metluhe.
/Kɛ'di mɛ'ɬʊʂ mɛ'ɬʊhɛ/
male.human-ERG food-ABS eat-3S.ABS.GNO-3S.ERG

4) The food is seen by the woman.
Metlusz né jzusza murna.
/mɛ'ɬʊʂ ne ʐʊ'ʂa mʊ'ɳa/
food-LAT POST.LAT female.human-ABS see-3S.GNO

:con: Sayàukèpu / Vaduduku Lētìkèpu

1) The man eats.
Natyu yeteukē.
/nɒ˧tjʊ˧ jɛ˧tɛʊ̯˧kɛː˧/
male.human-ABS eat-3S.AN.GNO.ANTIP

2) The woman is seen.
Namyu zizūteukēkēysu.
/nɒ˧mjʊ˧ zɪ˧zʊː˧tɛʊ̯˧kɛː˧kɛɪ̯ː˧sʊ˧/
female.human-ABS see-3S.AN.ABS.GNO-3P.AN.ERG

3) The man eats the food.
Nadyû melùcu yekēy.
/nɒ˧djʊ˧˦˩ mɛ˧lʊ˧˩cʊ˧ jɛkɛɪ̯ː˧/
male.human-ERG food-ABS eat-3S.IN.ABS.GNO-3S.AN.ERG

4) The food is seen by the woman.
Melùcu namyudû zizūkēy.
/mɛ˧lʊ˧˩cʊ˧ nɒ˧mjʊ˧dʊ˧˦˩ zɪ˧zʊː˧kɛɪ̯ː˧/
food-ABS woman-ERG see-3S.IN.ABS.GNO-3S.AN.ERG

(edited for ipa transcription error)
Last edited by marvelous on 14 Sep 2016 13:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Ebon »

Daibis suyirem.
[ˈdaj.bɪs su.ˈji.ɾɛm]
eat.3SG DEF_person
The man eats.

Beiruka suyirem.
[bɛj.ˈɾu.ka su.ˈji.ɾɛm]
see.PASS DEF_person
The woman is seen.

Daibis suyirem so tekiseor.
[ˈdaj.bis su.ˈji.ɾɛm so te.ˈki.seɔɾ]
eat.3SG DEF_person DEF.ACC food.ACC
The man eats the food.

Beiruka sui tekis sifyirenfen.
[bɛj.ˈɾu.ka suj ˈte.kɪs ˈsɪf.ji.ɾɛn.fɛn]
see.PASS DEF food DEF.AGENT_person.AGENT
The food is seen by the woman.
Last edited by Ebon on 14 Sep 2016 18:37, edited 1 time in total.
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marvelous
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by marvelous »

:con: Ponkola Lingwash (fictional descendant of :epo:)

1) The man eats.
La ish manghaz.
/la iʃ 'mand͡ʒaz/

2) The woman is seen.
La in staz vidita.
/la in staz vi'dita/

3) The man eats the food.
La ish manghaz la manghajh.
/la iʃ 'mand͡ʒaz la man'd͡ʒaʒ/

4) The food is seen by the woman.
La manghajh staz vidita del in.
/la man'd͡ʒaʒ staz vi'dita deɪl in/

:con: Ġeikoseimeil (from the same universe as Tasza, Pusza, etc., but a different universe from Ponkola Lingwash)

1) The man eats.
Kedz mökysine.
/kedz mø'kusine/
man-NOM.DEF eat-AFF.3S.AN

2) The woman is seen.
Sȳlaẑucis rei köne.
/suː'läʒɵ̞çis reɪ 'køne/
woman-NOM.DEF PREP.AGENT see-AFF.3S.AN

3) The man eats the food.
Kedz mökysine nikalis.
/kedz mø'kusine 'nikälis/
man-NOM.DEF eat-AFF.3S.AN food-ACC.DEF

4) The food is seen by the woman.
Nikis rei sȳlaẑucȳs könen.
/'nikis reɪ suː'läʒɵ̞çus 'kønen/
food-NOM.DEF PREP.AGENT woman-PREP.DEF see-AFF.3S.IN
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kiwikami
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by kiwikami »

:con: Alál - transitivity marked on verbs, case (agent vs. patient) of subject depends on volition (also marked on the verb), voice (active, passive/circumstantial, causative), animacy constraints can lead to VSO word order over the usual VOS, no gender marking.

Rrıẓàa kaıh.
rı<rı>ẓ-à-a k<ı>ah
eat<3.4>-CONC-VOL.ACT person<AGT>
The man eats (something).

This verb is transitive, as the man is eating something. Below is the intransitive, involitive, form:
Rıẓà akùh.
 rı<ı>ẓ-à-∅ k<ù>ah
 eat<3>-CONC-NVOL.ACT person<PAT>
The man feels energetic.

Uhrîat kaıh.
hu<rı>ŕ-à-t k<ı>ah
see<3.4>-CONC-NVOL.PASS person<AGT>
The woman is seen.

Rıîẓaa ırùẓ kaıh.
rı<ıí>ẓ-à-a r<ù>ıẓ k<ı>ah
eat<3.3>-CONC-VOL.ACT food<PAT> person<AGT>
The man eats the food.

Hıîrat rıẓ akùh.
hu<ıí>ŕ-à-t r<ı>ıẓ k<ù>ah
see<3.3>-CONC-NVOL.PASS food<AGT> person<PAT>
The food is seen by the woman.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by GrandPiano »

:esp: Spanish

El hombre come.
[el ˈombɾe ˈkome]
el hombre-Ø com-e
DEF.M.SG man-SG eat-3SG.PRS.IND
The man eats.

La mujer es vista.
[la muˈxeɾ es ˈβ̞ista]
la mujer-Ø es vist-a-Ø
DEF.F.SG woman-SG COP.3SG.PRS.IND see.PP-F-SG
The woman is seen.

El hombre come la comida.
[el ˈombɾe ˈkome la koˈmið̞a]
el hombre-Ø com-e la comida-Ø
DEF.M.SG man-SG eat-3SG.PRS.IND DEF.F.SG food-SG
The man eats the food.

La comida es vista por la mujer.
[la koˈmið̞a es ˈβ̞ista poɾ la muˈxeɾ]
la comida-Ø es vist-a-Ø por la mujer-Ø
DEF.F.SG food-SG COP.3SG.PRS.IND see.PP-F-SG by DEF.F.SG woman-SG
The food is seen by the woman.
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Isfendil »

:con: Dräw

Rä'awa lugþku
[Rɑʔawɐ lugθku]
R-ä'aw-a lugþ-ku
M-folk-NOM.SG.DEF eat-DIR.3SG
The man eats

Kä'awat xalku
[Kɑ'ʔawat ʃalku]
K-ä'aw-at xal-ku
F-folk-ACC.SG.DEF see-DIR.3SG
The woman is seen

Rä'awa lugþku Gölxanta
[Rɑʔawɐ lugþku golʃantɐ]
R-ä'aw-a lugþ-ku gölx-anta
M-folk-NOM.SG.DEF eat-DIR.3SG food-ACC.PL.DEF
The man eats the food

Gölxanta xalku Kä'awë
[golʃantɐ ʃalku Kɑ'ʔawee]
gölx-anta xal-ku k-ä'aw-ë
food-ACC.PL.DEF see-DIR.3SG F-folk-AGT.SG.DEF
The food is seen by the woman

Definiteness and gender are easy, the latter luckily is handled by optional prefixes. Passivity was very easy to come up with just as I was exposed to this- Does it make sense, though? I want to avoid the use of the copula here, and I was looking for a use for that agentive case. Educational statements and evidentiality make my head spin. I just chose primary source for this but I'm not sure whether truistic would have been better. Do any of you have suggestions?

Also, @marvelous, the Ponkola Lingwash... Now that is something I would like to know more about! Watching an auxlang become a natlang sounds like a really cool simulation to me, what exactly have you done to Esperanto?
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All4Ɇn
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by All4Ɇn »

:con: Thrinn

Sa mann it.
The man eats

Se faghra vird seħer.
The woman is seen

Sa mann it þen slav.
The man eats the food

Sa slav ist iner faghren seħer
The food is seen by the woman
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Lao Kou »

Image Géarthnuns

Chö dhaubs la glozh.
DEF man-NOM AUX.PRES eat
The man eats.

Chöi sasats lat tel.
DEF woman AUX.PRES.PASS see
The woman is seen.

Chö dhaubs la cha glomansat glozh.
DEF man AUX.PRES DEF food-ACC eat
The man eats the food.

Cha glomans lat chöi sasatsöin tel.
DEF food-NOM AUX.PRES.PASS DEF woman-INSTR see
The food is seen by the woman.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by clawgrip »

Ďomün
Image

As vëm gïvï.
As vë-m gï-vï.

the man-NOM 3.MASC.SG-eat
The man eats.

As an savadar.
As an(-m) sa-vad-r.

the woman(-NOM) 3.FEM.SG-PASS-see
The woman is seen.

As vëm gïśvï as bavïtïrï.
As vë-m gï-ïś-vï as b-avïtïr-ï.

the man-NOM 3.MASC.SG-eat the PL.IRRAT-food
The man eats the food.

As avïtïrṃ muvadar saram as ampa.
As avïtïr-ṃ mu-vad-r saram as an-pa.

the food-NOM 3.TAN.SG-PASS-see AGT the woman-INST
The food is seen by the woman.
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marvelous
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by marvelous »

:con: Interlingua Antic (WIP)

Transitivity marked on the noun depending on number and declension + by syntax, nominative/accusative, passive voice formed paraphrastically with essere+participle and distinguished from perfect by context, tracks natural gender and animacy.

1) The man eats.
Il viros ede.
/il 'viros 'ede/
ART.MASC.NOM.SG man-NOM.SG eat-PRSNT.3SG

2) The woman is seen.
La femm es vidit.
/la femm es vi'dit/
ART.FEM.NOM.SG woman-NOM.SG be-PRSNT.3SG see-PART.NOM.SG

3) The man eats the food.
Il viros ede lo alimento.
/il 'viros 'ede lo ali'mento/
ART.MASC.NOM.SG man-NOM.SG eat-PRSNT.3SG ART.NEUT.OBL.SG food-OBL.SG

4) The food is seen by the woman
Lo alimentos es vidit a la femme.
/lo ali'mentos es vi'dit a la 'femme/
ART.NEUT.NOM.SG food-NOM.SG be-PRSNT.3SG see-PART.NOM.SG by.agent ART.FEM.OBL.SG woman-OBL.SG
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Re: Transitivity, Case, Mood, Animacy, and Gender.

Post by Chagen »

:con: Maryusic

Maryusic is a PIE descendant, so it handles this pretty much exactly as one would expect. No funny stuff here.

hąras atti
man-NOM.SG eat-3S

vanē dośatra
woman-NOM.SG see-3S.MEDIOPASSIVE

hąras yamų atti
man-NOM.SG food-ACC.SG eat-3S

vanē hąritas dośatra
woman-NOM.SG man-ABL.Sg see-3S.MEDIOPASSIVE

hąras "man" is from *hₐṇros, a variant of *hₐénr̩ "man". yamas "food" is from PIE *yem- "hold, sustain" ("that which sustains us"). An alternate word for "food" is hākus, literally "that which keeps away (hunger)" from PIE *h₂erk- "hold back"
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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