but

A forum for translations, translation challenges etc. Good place to increase your conlang's vocabulary.
User avatar
Imralu
roman
roman
Posts: 960
Joined: 17 Nov 2013 22:32

but

Post by Imralu »

Aszev wrote:Swedish, German and a bunch of other languages distinguish but 'although' from but 'rather' (as in "not X, but Y" constructions).

Han gick inte, men det ville han ändå inte.
Er ging nicht, aber das wollte er sowieso nicht.

He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

Han gick inte, utan sprang.
Er ging nicht, sondern rannte.

He didn't walk, but ran.
:con: Ngolu

kka tuiu ju mie kka bio tuiu ju
no walk NOM.3s.ICS.DEF but no want walk NOM.3s.ICS.DEF
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to walk. (Not sure how to translate "anyway" yet, so I'll leave it out.

kka tuiu ahe jiio ju
no walk yes run NOM.3s.ICS.DEF
He didn't walk, but ran.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
________
MY MUSIC | MY PLANTS
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: but

Post by Lao Kou »

Image Géarthnuns

Fökh lé nzdaniz, de fökh lé helkeveçö jröçai üraf.
3SG-NOM.NEG AUX.PAST walk, but 3SG-NOM.NEG AUX.PAST thus-ADV anyway-ADV want
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

(For this one, particularly since a change of polarity was not involved, the namby-pamby "de" seems to fit. Could be intepreted as "but", could be interpreted as "and", and who's to care?)

Fökh lé nzdaniz, arkfö söb lé shöz.
3SG-NOM.NEG AUX.PAST walk, but 3SG-NOM AUX.PAST run
He didn't walk, but ran.

(If you started making noises about "sondern" and "not X, but Y" constructions, a Géarthçins would probably think of "arzhö", but it can't be used with verbs. Which gets you back to boring ol' "arkfö", "but", to change the polarity. If you really wanted to drive home the "rather" interpretation, "pfai" is a nice stylistic choice, with more flexibiility in word order than "arkfö" offers.)

Fökh lé nzdaniz, pfai söb lé shöz.
Fökh lé nzdaniz, söb lé pfai shöz.
He didn't walk, but ran.
Last edited by Lao Kou on 27 Mar 2016 10:18, edited 1 time in total.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2257
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 07:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: but

Post by clawgrip »

:jpn:Japanese

彼は歩かなかったけ(れ)ど(も)・が、歩きたくもなかった。
Kare wa arukanakatta ke(re)do(mo)/ga, arukitaku mo nakatta.

he TOP walk-NEG-PST but walk-DES-ADV also not.be-PST
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to walk anyway.

This construction uses a conjunction here meaning "but": (kedo/keredo/kedomo/keredomo/ga)

彼は歩いたんじゃなくて走った。
Kare wa aruita n ja nakute hashitta.

he TOP walk-PST N thus NEG-ADV run-PST
He didn't walk, but ran.

This construction uses the subordinating adverbial ending -kute.
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: but

Post by Lao Kou »

clawgrip wrote: :jpn:Japanese

彼は歩かなかったけ(れ)ど(も)・が、歩きたくもなかった。
Kare wa arukanakatta ke(re)do(mo)/ga, arukitaku mo nakatta.

he TOP walk-NEG-PST but walk-DES-ADV also not.be-PST
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to walk anyway.
Why isn't it:

歩きたがらなくもなかった。
arukitagaranaku mo nakatta.


or some such?
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2257
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 07:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: but

Post by clawgrip »

What they teach is not what happens in reality. -tagaru is indeed used primarily only for non-first-person subjects, but -tai is not limited to the first person, as some materials and teachers would have you believe. I covered it this post, but basically, -tai is the default form, and -tagaru is a marked form that shows that someone has a desire that either they cannot fulfill on their own or that is unlikely, unrealistic, etc.
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: but

Post by Lao Kou »

clawgrip wrote:I covered it this post, but basically, -tai is the default form, and -tagaru is a marked form that shows that someone has a desire that either they cannot fulfill on their own or that is unlikely, unrealistic, etc.
Well, I guess that explains why I didn't hear/use it much. [:P] My reference here makes a big deal out of a sentence using -tagaru in the first person! (exclamation point theirs)

自身を評して「何でもしてみたがる好奇心の固まりのような性格」とか。
Jishin o hyōshite "nan demo shite mitagaru kōkishin no katamari no yō na seikaku" to ka.

Assessing himself, he says things like, "My nature is curiosity personified, wanting to try everything."

I dunno. While, yes, he's talking about himself, for me it has the third-persony feel of "I'm the sort who wants...", or, sticking to the translation, it's his nature that wants.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
User avatar
Xing
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4153
Joined: 22 Aug 2010 18:46

Re: but

Post by Xing »

Image You know the language...

[ko kuːo oːlo kiːa e poːi kuːo poːŋɑ eːnʲa tʲeːja]
Ko kuo olo kia, e poi kuo ponga ena teya. – 'He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.'
PFV NEG walk 3s and also NEG want so however

[ko kuːo oːlo kiːa tʲeja aːla]
Ko kuo olo kia, teya ala. – 'He didn't walk, but run.'
PFV NEG walk 3s but run

Teya can be used directly as a conjunction in the latter kind of sentence, but not in the first. In the first kind of sentence, the conjunction e – which usually means simply 'and' – is used. Various adverbs (in this case poi and teya) may be used to modify the meaning from a plain 'and'.

Does anyone of you have a contrastive 'and' in your conlang(s)? How would you render sentences like I am young and you are old? – as opposed to a sentence like I am young but you are old. (In the latter sentence, but not in the former, it's presupposed that the listener would assume that you are also old.)
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2257
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 07:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: but

Post by clawgrip »

Lao Kou wrote:
clawgrip wrote:I covered it this post, but basically, -tai is the default form, and -tagaru is a marked form that shows that someone has a desire that either they cannot fulfill on their own or that is unlikely, unrealistic, etc.
Well, I guess that explains why I didn't hear/use it much. [:P] My reference here makes a big deal out of a sentence using -tagaru in the first person! (exclamation point theirs)

自身を評して「何でもしてみたがる好奇心の固まりのような性格」とか。
Jishin o hyōshite "nan demo shite mitagaru kōkishin no katamari no yō na seikaku" to ka.

Assessing himself, he says things like, "My nature is curiosity personified, wanting to try everything."

I dunno. While, yes, he's talking about himself, for me it has the third-persony feel of "I'm the sort who wants...", or, sticking to the translation, it's his nature that wants.
-tagaru is generally not used in the first person. There are a few exceptions, such as the form -tagatte mo. In your existentialist sort of example, the speaker is assessing himself in a sort of disconnected way. He does not in this particular sentence associate "himself the speaker" with "himself the subject" so the use of -tagaru makes sense here. In fact, it serves to emphasize this disconnect.
conlangingftw
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 11
Joined: 21 Dec 2014 01:55

Re: but

Post by conlangingftw »

:con: Lancúhea

Nea locél mató nełé d'ánu ma ci.
[na ˈlɤ.kel ˈma.tə ˈnɛ.we ˈða.nɯ ma kɪ]
3SGM;PAT walk-PST;3SGM NEG.but-MASC 3SGM;AGT anyway NEG do-PRES;3SG
Lit. He didn't walk but he did not do (because he wanted to) anyway.
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

Nea locél mató chesaíl.
[na ˈlɤ.kel ˈma.tə hiʃ]
3SGM;PAT walk-PST.3SGM NEG.but-MASC run-PST.3SGM
He didn't walk, but ran.

*Similar to Japanese's たがる, there is a difference between "want" with first and second person pronouns, and third person pronouns. There is the verb "dáhach" that can only be conjugated to first and second persons. For third person pronouns, the subject in the agentive case and either the intransitive verb cihach "to do (in reaction to something)", or the transitive verb oirach "to do (something)" are used together to depict the same idea. It could be understood as "they did something (because they wanted to)," rather than the more assertive "they want".

Contrast:
Á locéli mató d'ánu ma dáhi.
2SG walk-PST;2SG NEG.but-MASC anyway NEG want-2SG
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: but

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Yélian

Shellian doesn't distinguish between those two cases; "cut" is almost one-to-one the English "but".

Ciyibernet cut náiotat ciyiʻivareyet.
[kiçiˈbɛɾnɛt‿ʊt ˈnaɪ̯ɔtɐt kiçiˈʔɪvɐˈrɛʃɛt]
NEG-PST-walk-3SG but anyway NEG-PST-want-do-3SG
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

Ciyibernet cut yipalpet.
[kiçiˈbɛɾnɛt‿ʊt ʃɪˈpalpɛt]
NEG-PST-walk-3SG but PST-run-3SG
He didn't walk, but ran.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: but

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Caelian

Caelian differentiates between "jos" and "kyët".

Tot kë sidürnap, kyët Tot kë Dyong rüssingbeil boznenglyur.
[tʰɔt kʰə ʒiˈdʏɾˈnap, kʲət tʰɔt kʰə dʲɔŋ rʏˈʃɪŋbɛɪ̯l bɔsnɛŋˈʎʊɾ]
3SG.MASC.NOM NEG PST-walk.3SG, but 3SG.MASC.NOM NEG DEM.MASC.ACC do.3SG>3SG-want border.ABS
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway. (boznenglyur is the abessive case of the root b-zn-r, that refers to borders, restrictions etc. As a lexicalized form, it usually means "unconditionally", but negated it means "not (...) anyway")

Tot kë sidürnap, jos Tot sizüpriw.
[tʰɔt kʰə ʒidʏɾˈnap, jɔʃ tʰɔt ʒizʏpˈriʍ]
3SG.MASC.NOM NEG PST-walk.3SG, but 3SG.MASC.NOM PST-run.3SG
He didn't walk, but run.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
User avatar
CMunk
greek
greek
Posts: 509
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:47
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: but

Post by CMunk »

:dan: Danish

In Danish the distinction is not lexical, but can perhaps be expressed through syntax.

Han gik ikke, men det ville han heller ikke.
[haŋ ˈɡ̊iɡ̊ ˈeɡ̊ | mɛn d̥e ˈʋill̩ han ˈhɛlˀɐ ˈeɡ̊]
3SG.M.NOM walk.PST NEG, but that will.PST 3SG.M.NOM rather NEG
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

Han ikke gik, men løb.
[han eɡ̊ə ˈɡ̊iɡ̊ | mɛn ˈløːˀb̥]
3SG.M.NOM NEG walk.PST, but run.PST
He didn't walk, but ran.

In the first sentence, the adverb (ikke not) comes after the verb (gik walked) as is conventional for independent clauses. In the second, the negation comes before the verb, which is normally reserved for subordinate clauses, but it can be used in some independent clauses. I suppose it's a sort of subjunctive mood.
Native: :dan: | Fluent: :uk: | Less than fluent: :deu:, :jpn:, :epo: | Beginner: Image, :fao:, :non:
Creating: :con:Jwar Nong, :con:Mhmmz
User avatar
k1234567890y
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2400
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: but

Post by k1234567890y »

:con: Lonmai Luna
dala modo gotis, pedi dala modo daler gotis betu.
3.SG NEG walk but 3.SG NEG want.to walk also
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to walk.

dala modo gotis, oter dala cuka
3.SG NEG walk, instead 3.SG run
He didn't walk, but ran.

:con: Urban Basanawa

彼ね歩る゚と、然く彼欲おっる゚とね歩ら゚ん
/hɪ nɛ wandəlt ak hɪ wɔɫt nɛ wandələn/
彼 ね 歩る゚-と 然く 彼 欲おっる゚-と ね 歩ら゚-ん
3.SG.ANIM.NOM NEG walk-PRT.3.SG but 3.SG.NOM want.PRT-3.SG.PRT NEG walk-INF
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to walk.

彼ね歩る゚と、まある走あんと
/hɪ nɛ wandəlt mɑ:r rant/
彼 ね 歩る゚-と まある 走あん-と
3.SG.ANIM.NOM NEG walk-PRT.3.SG but.rather run.PRT-3.SG.PRT
He didn't walk, but ran.
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
Ebon
sinic
sinic
Posts: 354
Joined: 02 Jul 2016 20:55

Re: but

Post by Ebon »

Savui sena dwi zae, savui raiya sui sei dwi yure.
past_aux.3SG.NEG walk.PART 3SG but, past_aux.3SG.NEG be.PART DEF walk.3SG 3SG wish
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

Savunon sena dwi, lushha.
past_aux.NEG.SS walk.PART 3SG, run.PART
He didn't walk, but ran.
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: but

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Anto

Anto doesn't distinguish both cases. aba is used.

Ton bam lawlaw ton aba ton tjo law bam welwel ton jukibi.
[tʰɔn b̥am ˈlaʊ̯laʊ̯ tʰɔn ˈab̥a tʰɔn cʰɔː ˈlaʊ̯ b̥am ˈwɛlwɛl tʰɔn ˈjug̥ib̥i]
3PS NEG walk-PST 3.ANIM but 3PS PART_CV walk NEG want-PST 3.ANIM no_matter_how
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

Ton bam lawlaw ton aba hejzahej ton.
[tʰɔn b̥am ˈlaʊ̯laʊ̯ tʰɔn ˈab̥a ˈhɛɪ̯t͡sahɛɪ̯ tʰɔn]
3PS NEG walk-PST 3.ANIM but run-PST 3.ANIM
He didn't walk, but run.

:con: Utseech

Utseech distinguishes "ava" and "ôdech"

A is diken gejâgech, ava ul haen diken gewolen.
[a ɪs ˈdɪkən gəˈjɚgɛç, ˈava ʊɫ ˈha.ən ˈdɪkən gəˈwɔɫən]
3SG.MASC AUX.PST.3SG NEG go.PP but also AUX.PST.3SG NEG want.PP
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

A is diken gejâgech, ôdech geprijeten.
[a ɪs ˈdɪkən gəˈjɚgɛç, ˈø˞ dɛç gəˈpɹiːətən]
3SG.MASC AUX.PST.3SG NEG go.PP, but run.PP
He didn't walk, but run.

TODO: add "anyway" in both cases (don't have time left atm)
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: but

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Bath'aso

Bath'aso uses "tzorn" as a neutral word for "but". However, that is not used in both cases, as normally such relations are expressed with the aspect particles. The first sentences is made of the pattern: Netgative (...) and negative, in fact, while the second sentence is negative (...) perfective. Orkish cannot distinguish whether an action has not appeared in the past or not in the present.

Zar ħalom, zar ishtim grantset.
[zɑr ˈʕɑlɔm, zɑr ˈiʂtim ˈgɣantsɛt]
NEG walk-3SG.ABS, NEG want-3SG.ABS anyway
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

Zar ħalom, khek kuzatom.
[zɑr ʕɑlɔm, kʰɛk ˈkɯzɑtɤm]
NEG walk-3SG.ABS, PERF run-3SG
He didn't walk, but ran.

:con: Paatherye

Eflish has another kind of distinguishation: It uses "jū" for a restriction from negative to positive, and "wete" for a restriction from positive to negative. Like "Your sister had an accident, she is fine" and "She is fine, wete her car is completely destroyed"

नुलुण युवो खड़समे, जू नुलुण युवो दौथेमे आऌकलि.
Nulun yuwē kharsame, jū nulun yuwē deytheme ālkali.

[ˈnulun ˈju.eː ˈkʰarsame, d͡ʒuː ˈnulun ˈju.eː ˈðeɪ̯tʰeme ˈaːlkali]
NEG.IMPF.3SG.MASC 3SG.MASC.NOM walk.INF, but NEG.IMPF.3SG.MASC 3SG.MASC want.INF anyway
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.

नुलुण युवो खड़समे, युवो प्रीमुण.
Nulun yuwē kharsame, yuwē prīmun.

[ˈnulun ˈju.eː ˈkʰarsame, ˈju.eː ˈpriːmun]
NEG.IMPF.3SG.MASC 3SG.MASC.NOM walk.INF, 3SG.MASC run.IMPF.3SG
He didn't walk, but ran.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
chridd
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 19
Joined: 17 Apr 2016 21:56
Location: the internet
Contact:

Re: but

Post by chridd »

Image Lwaitel
Naun lúlek úni, útwek lúim úni yátleng hu'an.
[ˌnaʊn ˈlu.lə̆k ˈu.ɲɨ, ˈu.twʊ̆k ˌlʊɨm ˈu.ɲɨ ˈjæt.lŋ̩ ˈʍɑn]
go-PROX walk not, but VERB-OBV not want EXPERIENCER=PROX.
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to.

Naun lúlek úni, u naun táles.
[ˌnaʊn ˈlu.lə̆k ˈu.ɲɨ, u ˌnaʊn ˈta.lə̆s]
go-PROX walk not, rather go-PROX run.
He didn't walk, but he ran.
~ chri d. d. /ʧɹɪ.di.di/ (Phonotactics, schmphonotactics) · they (for now, at least) · My conlangs · Searchable Index Diachronica
User avatar
marvelous
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 146
Joined: 26 Jun 2016 11:34

Re: but

Post by marvelous »

:con: Tasza

He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.
Hé xérnote, vagiba hé demuhom.
/he xe'ɳɔʈɛ va'gɪba he dɛ'mʊhɔm/
NEG walk-PRF.3S.ABS nevertheless NEG PROVB-VOL.3S.ABS

He didn't walk, but ran.
Hé xérnote rna bérnornote.
/he xe'ɳɔʈɛ ɳa beɳɔ'ɳɔʈɛ/
NEG walk-PRF.3S.ABS rather run-PRF.3S.ABS
:heb: I have gained self-respect and left. :yid:
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: but

Post by Iyionaku »

marvelous wrote::con: Tasza

He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.
Hé xérnote, vagiba hé demuhom.
/he xe'ɳɔʈɛ va'gɪba he dɛ'mʊhɔm/
NEG walk-PRF.3S.ABS nevertheless NEG PROVB-VOL.3S.ABS

He didn't walk, but ran.
Hé xérnote rna bérnornote.
/he xe'ɳɔʈɛ ɳa beɳɔ'ɳɔʈɛ/
NEG walk-PRF.3S.ABS rather run-PRF.3S.ABS
Your conlang looks interesting so far. I like hé for not. I am looking forward to hear more of it.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
User avatar
marvelous
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 146
Joined: 26 Jun 2016 11:34

Re: but

Post by marvelous »

Iyionaku wrote:
marvelous wrote::con: Tasza

He didn't walk, but he didn't want to anyway.
Hé xérnote, vagiba hé demuhom.
/he xe'ɳɔʈɛ va'gɪba he dɛ'mʊhɔm/
NEG walk-PRF.3S.ABS nevertheless NEG PROVB-VOL.3S.ABS

He didn't walk, but ran.
Hé xérnote rna bérnornote.
/he xe'ɳɔʈɛ ɳa beɳɔ'ɳɔʈɛ/
NEG walk-PRF.3S.ABS rather run-PRF.3S.ABS
Your conlang looks interesting so far. I like hé for not. I am looking forward to hear more of it.
Thank you [:D]
:heb: I have gained self-respect and left. :yid:
Post Reply