č̕škʷil̕ or Ch'shkwil? - Romanisation in writing

[DesEsseintes]

Like so many other board members, I have greatly enjoyed Micamo's recent vignettes set in her fascinating world of bleak Tazar and harsh č̕škʷil̕.

However, reading her threads raised a question in my mind regarding how writers with well-conceived conlangs choose to write names from their languages.

Micamo has opted for a relatively diacritic-and-weird-symbol-free version of her romanisation for Mithara. Instead of writing č̕škʷil̕ she writes Ch'shkwil', etc.

I was going to ask Micamo about her choice but then chose not to as: a) the question doesn't just concern her stories; b) I didn't want to derail her threads.

So my questions are as follows:
- as writers/conlangers, would you opt for an exotic all-diacritics-included romanisation or a pared-down version?
- as readers, do you prefer anglicised (or frenchified, etc.) versions for the names of characters and places in the stories you read?
- do you think it's viable to use very alien-looking names if you want your work to reach a wider audience?

[Prinsessa]

As reader and writer alike, I prefer adaptations to the language in question.

Arabic adapts foreign names to its script. Just because Swedish shares mostly the same glyphs as English doesn't mean it shouldn't do it too; it's still a different script; the letters don't represent the same sounds as in English.

For example Bosnian adapted the name of Steve Jobs to the values of its glyphs (still being in a version of the Latin alphabet) on the book about his life. I love it! All langauges should do this!

I don't like the clashes.

Especially in a case like this where Mithara has glyphs that aren't used for real words in any register of English (whereas English can indeed use letters like <æ> and <ö>, it doesn't use superscript w). That should definitely be adapted.

IMO!!!!

[DesEsseintes]

Although I think your viewpoint is probably more logical than mine, I love the clash. I love words spelt the French way in English as well.

But I suspect many people feel the same way as you do, Prinsessa.

Another but: I might be wrong.

[elemtilas]

So my questions are as follows:
- as writers/conlangers, would you opt for an exotic all-diacritics-included romanisation or a pared-down version?
- as readers, do you prefer anglicised (or frenchified, etc.) versions for the names of characters and places in the stories you read?
- do you think it's viable to use very alien-looking names if you want your work to reach a wider audience?

I prefer clutter free, as much as possible, when transcribing my own conlangs. I think too many diacritics can give the impression of boredoftheringery; when they're used a little too gratuitously. Especially since English is largely a diacritic-free zone, the use of them in a conlang word or name can really pop, making the name stand out for the reader. But if every conlang name or word off your pen is oozing diacritics on every letter, then I'd say that after a while, they begin to spoil the effect.

As a reader, I find that too many diacritics get in the way. They can also scream "this writer must have read Tolkien, cos he's got umlauts over all his vowels -- but clearly doesn't have a clue what they're for"! If you've got a good reason for a diacritic to be there, then fine. If the diacritic is there because you put it there when you started this language when you were ten and didn't know any better, well that might be a different matter! (And I was certainly guilty of that for a while!) I would rather have a nicely Anglicised version rather than an overly bizarre romanisation. If the Romanisation comes out to something like Jhonam, you don't really need to simply further or even completely translate it into English as John! But if the original is just too bizarre, like hĴōňũmŵţ, the writer might consider a more pared down version!

As for the third question, I think 'everything in moderation' and you can't go too far wrong. Alien names I think this can certainly be overdone; and I think they can certainly be poorly done -- both of which amount to pain for the poor reader! But it can also be done well. Hand in hand with very many uberalien names is the use of huge blocks of untranslated conlang text. I like colangs; I like reading about other people's conlangs; but if you write a novel and show me half a page of untranslated conlang text, I will show you the world's half-page speed reading record holder in action! And if you're going to do that, at least explain the conlang a little in an appendix or associated website!

[cntrational]

Depends on audience. If I was talking to conlang folk, I'd use the original orthography. But for general stuff, I adapt it, changing orthography and sometimes even translating components.

[Serena]

I still freak out when I figure out the wrong gender of people on the internet

[Micamo]

It's actually quite simple: I use the "fancy" Mithara orthography when I want to maximize aesthetics, and the "simple" orthography when I want to maximize readability. I do the same thing with Tazaric words; weng instead of wɜ́ŋ, nyieng instead of ɲɪ́ɜ̀ŋ, Tazar instead of Tá!ár.

The question of when I use a native word and when I use an anglicism (e.g. "Ch'shkwil'" or "The Everwhite") is more complicated. My rule of thumb is to use the word the speaker would use in their native tongue for something when it's either a proper noun, or it's for something that exists in their world but not in ours (wengs, czxan trees). And sometimes I'll use an anglicism or a translation anyway for the sake of mixing things up and making the writing less repetitive; e.g. sometimes I'll have characters refer to Tazar by its nickname, the Black City, or to Ch'shkwil' as just "the forest."

I also sometimes use english as a cheat: I don't know what I want the native word for the Chained God to be, so I always refer to him with that name as a way of avoiding making a decision. Likewise I don't know much about the language of the people who live to the south of the Mithe, so where I'd normally use native words in their language I use english-isms: "Whitelings", "The Curtain", "The Northguard".

As for entire dialogue in-conlang, this is an indulgence on the part of the author. It's something some people do with natlangs too; Entire pages of conversation of a normally-English novel written in French, with not a single word of translation provided. It's a way for the writer to show off their multilingualism to the audience, and it's very tedious.

The only time when I think it's somewhat acceptable, is when it's supposed to be incomprehensible to the character as well as the audience. But it's usually more effective to just say "They spoke in jibberish" or if you want to be REALLY fancy, "They spoke some jibberish in [language]."

[elemtilas]

It's actually quite simple: I use the "fancy" Mithara orthography when I want to maximize aesthetics, and the "simple" orthography when I want to maximize readability. I do the same thing with Tazaric words; weng instead of wɜ́ŋ, nyieng instead of ɲɪ́ɜ̀ŋ, Tazar instead of Tá!ár.

The question of when I use a native word and when I use an anglicism (e.g. "Ch'shkwil'" or "The Everwhite") is more complicated. My rule of thumb is to use the word the speaker would use in their native tongue for something when it's either a proper noun, or it's for something that exists in their world but not in ours (wengs, czxan trees). And sometimes I'll use an anglicism or a translation anyway for the sake of mixing things up and making the writing less repetitive; e.g. sometimes I'll have characters refer to Tazar by its nickname, the Black City, or to Ch'shkwil' as just "the forest."

Excellent points. I usually call Daine, well "Daine" (their ownname for themselves), but will sometimes refer to them as Wildings (a translation of the Thietish / Avantimannish name for them), or sometimes a more descriptive "winged folk".

I also sometimes use english as a cheat: I don't know what I want the native word for the Chained God to be, so I always refer to him with that name as a way of avoiding making a decision. Likewise I don't know much about the language of the people who live to the south of the Mithe, so where I'd normally use native words in their language I use english-isms: "Whitelings", "The Curtain", "The Northguard".

Yep. Even if I dó have the native name, I will sometimes refer by secondary name.

As for entire dialogue in-conlang, this is an indulgence on the part of the author. It's something some people do with natlangs too; Entire pages of conversation of a normally-English novel written in French, with not a single word of translation provided. It's a way for the writer to show off their multilingualism to the audience, and it's very tedious.

The only time when I think it's somewhat acceptable, is when it's supposed to be incomprehensible to the character as well as the audience. But it's usually more effective to just say "They spoke in jibberish" or if you want to be REALLY fancy, "They spoke some jibberish in [language]."

Indeed, though this device ought to be used, in my opinion, very carefully and very sparingly. Me I would never treat you to more than perhaps a half paragraph of untranslated conlang -- just enough to set the scene and then segue in to the consequence of not knowing what's going on.

A story written half in French, half in English I think is quite a different matter from a story half in, for example, Talarian. In a certain time and place, for example, when most readers of such stories or novels were educated and probably had a pretty good command of French, it would be understandable. Yeah, a little bit of showing off, perhaps, but understandable. For me I think it would work much better as a device for use within a story where two or three characters who understand the other languages, but don't really speak them simply talk in their own languages. Maybe a romantic comedy where the two protagonists speak different languages. Which, of course, leaves a fantastic opportunity for the author to construct a pidgin!

[Lambuzhao]

If this were a Rozwi word written in the accepted Romanization, it would have to have the haceks:
č̕škwil̕ or else č̕šqil̕ .

But I like Ch'shkwil'. It somehow has a Cree or Sauk or perhaps slightly Lenni-Lenape feel to it.

[Ànradh]

The Romanisations for my languages (all of which I recently scrapped, actually... but this still applies for my new one) were designed with readability in mind (for English speakers at any rate); granted, they aren't totally transparent, but I think consistency is easier to deal with than a mess of different polygraphs.
So, Zedata is pronounced [zɛ.'da.ta], while the slightly less transparent Khætta is pronounced [ˈkʰe.tːa].
I imagine most English speakers would pronounce the majority of this language's words relatively close to correctly, even without explanation.
Unfortunately, there are some choices I'm not so happy with yet...

[Curlyjimsam]

If writing for a general audience I will tend to try to keep things as intuitive to a typical English-speaking reader as possible - that means little to no use of diacritics, and typically also avoiding things like apostrophes that readers aren't going to be able to interpret. If making up a language specifically for the purpose of using it in a novel, I will (in general) deliberately give it a sound system that can be represented using letters of the roman alphabet in a way that will allow English speakers to pronounce it more-or-less accurately.