{Writing this under sleep deprivation}
As all the the green earth knows, half my posts are in games. One post went like this: viewtopic.php?p=323582#p323582
I based it off of Gan Chinese and its marginal click usage ᵑǃ¡.
I took that and turned it into a lang of its own.
Culture will be here: (viewtopic.php?t=8016)
What happened to Dz? On the backburner. But I still think about it.
Phonology
The Swâŋ language is "monosyllabic," like ones from east Asia.
Onsets:
/m ɲ ŋ/
/mʘ ɲǂ ŋǃ¡/
/p t ts tɕ tx k (ʔ - null onset)/
/pʰ tʰ tsʰ tɕʰ txʰ kʰ/
/s ɕ x/
/l j w/
All of these can have /j/ and /w/ added to them.
Nuclei:
/a e ɛ i o ɔ ɯ u/ (I often just write ɯ as ə because I can't be bothered.)
/ã ɛ̃ ɪ̃ ɔ̃ ɯ̃/
/m ɲ ŋ l/ (must be first phone in nucleus)
Tones are /˥ ˧ ˥˧ ˧˥ ˦˥˧ ˧˩/; /˥ ˧/ are checked tones.
Codas:
/n ŋ/
/t k/
Swâŋ (East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks)
Swâŋ (East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks)
Last edited by Visions1 on 19 Dec 2023 21:19, edited 3 times in total.
Re: East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks
How do nasal vowels and nasal codas interact?
Do /tx/ and /txʰ/ appear in some natlang? Why not /kx/?
I don't know about clicks so I don't say anything about them.
Do /tx/ and /txʰ/ appear in some natlang? Why not /kx/?
I don't know about clicks so I don't say anything about them.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks
/tx/ does appear in |Xam, but not its aspirate; I have never seen that phoneme.
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
Re: East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks
I haven't yet made any nasal vowels with nasal codas yet. But it's a good question. I did make the word /ɲŋ́/ - "to fall," and I will make others like it.
Plus, in Hanoi Vietnamese, they have /ŋ͡m/ as a coda.
The /tx txʰ/ is just a "let's make my language unique" thing, but I was actually intending to evolve it from /kx kxʰ/ (in turn coming from q qʰ) - and also from a shifted /tɕ tɕʰ/. I based it off of tx and txʷ as clusters (not as a single phoneme) in Halkomelem.
Also I evolved the clicks from an attempt by the speakers to devoice and ejectivize their prenasalized implosive stops. Let's just say they failed perfectly.
Part of my conlanging worldview is - who cares about precedent anyways? It's it's technically possible, it's not impossible. Languages aren't really these purely logical things, often evolving on the fly (Wolof pronouns look like a conlang idea, and English and Japanese are too nuts to be conlanged, and Lushootseed has no nasals, etc). I've found that some of my best conlanging was forgetting the formal rules and saying "Hey, this looks interesting/convenient..." because that's how real languages evolve.
Re: East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks
Actually hearing the distinction between k kʰ kx kxʰ could be a bit hard for the listener. So I see why tx is better.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks
Between tx and txh, I can hardly tell the difference myself!
Re: East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks
Corpus - because come on, that's what we're all here for anyways.
Please note that I have not yet solidified the rules. As I put down the corpus, I'll fix up the rules formally and edit what is incorrect.
Some Random Sentences:
Kaí Jɔ̏n Tí Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ
Eat Egg SUBJCT Wyvern
The wyvern eats an egg.
Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ Kaí ŋǃ¡ȯ, Paí Jə́ Tʰa
Wyvern Eat Bamboo, Want NEG 3SG
The wyvern eats bamboo, not liking it.
Jɔ̏n Nȧ Xɛ̇ŋ (Nə̀) Jaí Sɛ̃̂
Egg [of] Doer Out (PFTV) In Festival
An Egg laid on a festival.
Kaí Tʰu Tí Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ Òŋ
Eat Deer SUBJT Wyvern SUBJNCT
Wyvern would eat (a) deer.
Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ Kaí
Wyvern Eat
A wyvern(s) eats.
Txwɔ̏ Pɛ̇k Nə̀ Tȧ, Sí Tsàŋ Kĺ Nâŋ Xúk Joɛk Kĺ Kaí
Hyena Say PFTV Wolf, Go Beach 1PL Arrive Dig Clam 1PL Eat
Hyena said to Wolf: “Let’s go to beach, [and] get there – [we’ll] dig clams, [and] we’ll eat [them]!”
Sɛ̃̂ Tcɔ À Tsʰɔə
Festival Old Heavily Arrow
Ancient Festival of the Arrow
Sɛ̃̂ Tsʰɔə Tcɔ À
Festival Arrow Old Heavily
Festival of the Ancient Arrow
Please note that I have not yet solidified the rules. As I put down the corpus, I'll fix up the rules formally and edit what is incorrect.
Some Random Sentences:
Kaí Jɔ̏n Tí Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ
Eat Egg SUBJCT Wyvern
The wyvern eats an egg.
Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ Kaí ŋǃ¡ȯ, Paí Jə́ Tʰa
Wyvern Eat Bamboo, Want NEG 3SG
The wyvern eats bamboo, not liking it.
Jɔ̏n Nȧ Xɛ̇ŋ (Nə̀) Jaí Sɛ̃̂
Egg [of] Doer Out (PFTV) In Festival
An Egg laid on a festival.
Kaí Tʰu Tí Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ Òŋ
Eat Deer SUBJT Wyvern SUBJNCT
Wyvern would eat (a) deer.
Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ Kaí
Wyvern Eat
A wyvern(s) eats.
Txwɔ̏ Pɛ̇k Nə̀ Tȧ, Sí Tsàŋ Kĺ Nâŋ Xúk Joɛk Kĺ Kaí
Hyena Say PFTV Wolf, Go Beach 1PL Arrive Dig Clam 1PL Eat
Hyena said to Wolf: “Let’s go to beach, [and] get there – [we’ll] dig clams, [and] we’ll eat [them]!”
Sɛ̃̂ Tcɔ À Tsʰɔə
Festival Old Heavily Arrow
Ancient Festival of the Arrow
Sɛ̃̂ Tsʰɔə Tcɔ À
Festival Arrow Old Heavily
Festival of the Ancient Arrow
Last edited by Visions1 on 20 Dec 2023 11:12, edited 1 time in total.
Re: East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks
Master Pʰɔ̂ŋ [Pʰɔ̂ŋ Tsî Lì] on a child hitting his parents
Pʰɔ̂ŋ Tsî Lì was a "recent" philosopher. I'll write a post on him later.
Pjé Jə́ ɲǂáɔ̃ Kʰã̏ Tsə́ Lã̏ Tsə́ Lȕŋ, Wuk Pʰó Wà À, Jɛ̇ot Tʰèn Mɔək Pjé.
Child Not Hit Father Or Mother Or Must, Even If Beat Heavily, Unless Want Kill Child
A child may not hit [his] father or mother, even if they beat him heavily, unless they are trying to kill him.
Tsə́ is viewed as an adjective. It is not the same as an “and” connecting two phrases in the language.
Tʰa ɲǂáɔ̃, Pʰó ɲǂî, Mɔək Tʰa.
He Hit, If Blood, Kill Him
Should he hit and draw blood, he ought to be killed!
Tʰa ɲǂáɔ̃ Nȧ Tʰȧk Jȉ Jȅ Tí Tʰa Xót?
He Hit Doer Cause Soul Live SBJCT He SARCH
He should hit the ones who gave him life?
Note: In order to specify who Tʰa is, the Subject marker is used as a topic marker. The same happens below by Tsʰɛ̀ŋ.
Wuk Pʰó Txȧək, Kɛ̇ Lȕŋ.
Even If Help, No OBL
Even if it’s to help them, he must not!
Wuk Pʰó Tʰȧk Pjé Tí Tsʰɛ̀ŋ, Kɛ̇ Lȕŋ.
Even If Make Child SBJCT They, No OBL
Even if they only adopted him, he must not!
Wuk Pʰó Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Kə̃̏, Kɛ̇ Lȕŋ.
Even If They Evil, No OBL
Even if they are evil, he must not!
Kʰã̏ Tsə́ Lã̏ Tsə́ Tsʰã̏n Tʰú Jɛ̇ot, ɲǂáɔ̃ Jə́ Lȕŋ.
Father Or Mother Or Die Def.Fut Unless, Hit Not Must
Unless [his] father or mother are going to die, [he] must not hit [them].
Jɛ̇ot, like many conjunctions between phrases, might go at the beginning of the phrase, or the end as a verb modifier would.
Diary entry from a child on an island colony.
mʘáo Tȧk, ɲǂm̀ Úŋ, Cúk Sɛ̏ut Paí Lȧ Cɛ̏ŋ Jɔ̂ Nɛ̏ Tu.
Day Last, Moon Long, Year 10 5 Lȧ Cɛ̏ŋ Emperor
New Year’s Eve, Year 15 of Emperor Lȧ Cɛ̏ŋ.
Ljíɛŋ Tȧk Cúk Pʰȍ.
Night Last Year Now
It’s the last night of the year.
Tʰɛ́ Pʰȁ Jə́, Nâŋ Ŋóa Òŋ.
I Wonder Not, arrive here SBJNCTV
I can’t believe we’ve made it so far.
Ki̇̇ Cúk Sù Nə̀.
Be Year Hard PFTV
It was a hard year.
Txʰã̂n Sɔ̀a Pʰȍ.
Snow Go.down Now
It’s snowing now.
Txò Ci Txʰàen Jái Xôi Nə̀.
Set.Up Table In Main.room PFTV.
They’ve set up a table in the main room.
Tńjɔ Kwán Txò Ci Xâu Kə̀n Pɛ̂aɔ Tʰa Nə̀.
Spirits Because, Set.Up Food Lamp Over It PFTV
They’ve set up food and candles on it for the spirits [or: gods].
Note: People of this child’s social status generally ate on the floor. The rich would eat at tables. In this context, “table” means “altar.” For the rich, the table they’d lay offerings on would be much higher than one they would eat at.
Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Kaí Sɔ̂ Pɛ̂aɔ Kĺ. Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Kaí Tcʰwɛ̂ À Pɛ̂aɔ Kĺ.
They Eat First Over Us. They Eat Good Heavily Over Us.
They’re eating first, and they’re eating better than us.
Txut Cjá Wɔ́, Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Pwì Tsmȯ Kwán, Ə̃ Tʰɔ̀n Ki̇̇ Pwì Tcʰwɛ̂ À Pɛ̂aɔ Nȧ.
Reasonable But, They Give All Because, Proper Be Give Good Heavily Over Therefore
But, that makes sense: they gave us everything, so it’s only fair we give them the best.
Kʰja Tcí Í Lã̏ Jó Pʰȍ.
Sit Next.to Mom DEAR Now
I’m sitting next to Mom now.
Tʰa ɲǂȉ Wi̇̇ok Ljíɛŋ Pʰȍ.
She Talk Meal Night Now
She’s talking about how she made dinner.
Tʰɛ́ Kʰja Tcí Í Ŋûɛ Kà.
I Sit Next.to Window.
I’m sitting next to the window.
Ljíɛŋ Ŋóa, Klə̏ Nȧ Ki̇̇ Kȕa Nâŋ Ŋóa Ŋi̇̇, Wuk Pʰó Ŋóa Xéŋ Sn̏o Ki̇̇ Kʰjə̂ À Tsə́ Txʰã̂n À Tsə́.
Night Here, Portion Doer Be Near Arrive Here POSBL.FUT, Though Here Out House Is Wind Heavily And Snow Heavily And
Some of the neighbours might come over tonight, even though the wind is blustering and snowing outside.
Nâŋ Tu Ŋóa, Pɛ̇k Tʰɛ́ Nə̀, Tu Ŋóa Ki̇̇ Tu Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ.
Arrive Land Here, Said Me PFTV, Land Here Be Land Wyvern
I was told when I was moving here that this is wyvern country.
Tʰɛ́ Pʰȁ Tʰɛ́ Lȍɛ Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ Jaí Cú Sɔ̀u Òŋ.
I Wonder I See Wyvern In Year Front SBJNTV
I wonder if I’ll see any wyverns next year.
Some grammatical notes
The word order is strongly SVO. The line between subject and object in the sentence is sometimes not strictly enforced when a noun ends up at the end of one phrase and the beginning of another. Occasionally a speaker might construe VOS, often in these vague contexts. Ambiguity can be solved through a variety of ways if not wanted, for example the modifier Tí.
Adjectives and word modifiers are normally put after their modified (some, such as mass nouns). Due to displacement, this often means that Verb modifiers are put at the end of the head phrase, with this fact often helping to separate the phrases of the sentence.
The language is technically zero-marking, but often will have to say stuff because context renders this impossible. Zero marking can make the line between subject and object fuzzy, as noted above.
Tones á à ȁ â when the coda is (or used to be) a stop -> ȧ a à á
In the pre form, intense degree was shown with duplication, but this is no longer present the modern form: Sêem Tcop Tcop Tsʰoup -> Sɛ̃̂ Tcɔ À Tsʰɔə
ə is really ɯ but I’m too lazy to replace it. Same with c for ɕ and n for ɲ. (That’s basically what Romanization is anyways, right?)
My laziness is also the source for the lack of classifiers. But really, who needs them. (Like with Dzougedan, I will probably regret this statement and others like it.)
The language (aka me writing it) has a hard time handling two valencies in one verb. I tried getting around “for” constructions with a benefactive. I’m dreading the others. I need help. I am also having trouble linking “and” “when” and “that” phrases.
If you like, I would really appreciate if you could look through the corpus and tell me what stuff looks wrong. I hope to post some problems I have soon, but until then, it would help me a lot to know what looks wrong from others; points of view.
My internet where I am isn’t really able to get to the server, but it takes email. I’m going to try figuring something out. But I’m going to try reading and responding to every comment I can.
Pʰɔ̂ŋ Tsî Lì was a "recent" philosopher. I'll write a post on him later.
Pjé Jə́ ɲǂáɔ̃ Kʰã̏ Tsə́ Lã̏ Tsə́ Lȕŋ, Wuk Pʰó Wà À, Jɛ̇ot Tʰèn Mɔək Pjé.
Child Not Hit Father Or Mother Or Must, Even If Beat Heavily, Unless Want Kill Child
A child may not hit [his] father or mother, even if they beat him heavily, unless they are trying to kill him.
Tsə́ is viewed as an adjective. It is not the same as an “and” connecting two phrases in the language.
Tʰa ɲǂáɔ̃, Pʰó ɲǂî, Mɔək Tʰa.
He Hit, If Blood, Kill Him
Should he hit and draw blood, he ought to be killed!
Tʰa ɲǂáɔ̃ Nȧ Tʰȧk Jȉ Jȅ Tí Tʰa Xót?
He Hit Doer Cause Soul Live SBJCT He SARCH
He should hit the ones who gave him life?
Note: In order to specify who Tʰa is, the Subject marker is used as a topic marker. The same happens below by Tsʰɛ̀ŋ.
Wuk Pʰó Txȧək, Kɛ̇ Lȕŋ.
Even If Help, No OBL
Even if it’s to help them, he must not!
Wuk Pʰó Tʰȧk Pjé Tí Tsʰɛ̀ŋ, Kɛ̇ Lȕŋ.
Even If Make Child SBJCT They, No OBL
Even if they only adopted him, he must not!
Wuk Pʰó Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Kə̃̏, Kɛ̇ Lȕŋ.
Even If They Evil, No OBL
Even if they are evil, he must not!
Kʰã̏ Tsə́ Lã̏ Tsə́ Tsʰã̏n Tʰú Jɛ̇ot, ɲǂáɔ̃ Jə́ Lȕŋ.
Father Or Mother Or Die Def.Fut Unless, Hit Not Must
Unless [his] father or mother are going to die, [he] must not hit [them].
Jɛ̇ot, like many conjunctions between phrases, might go at the beginning of the phrase, or the end as a verb modifier would.
Diary entry from a child on an island colony.
mʘáo Tȧk, ɲǂm̀ Úŋ, Cúk Sɛ̏ut Paí Lȧ Cɛ̏ŋ Jɔ̂ Nɛ̏ Tu.
Day Last, Moon Long, Year 10 5 Lȧ Cɛ̏ŋ Emperor
New Year’s Eve, Year 15 of Emperor Lȧ Cɛ̏ŋ.
Ljíɛŋ Tȧk Cúk Pʰȍ.
Night Last Year Now
It’s the last night of the year.
Tʰɛ́ Pʰȁ Jə́, Nâŋ Ŋóa Òŋ.
I Wonder Not, arrive here SBJNCTV
I can’t believe we’ve made it so far.
Ki̇̇ Cúk Sù Nə̀.
Be Year Hard PFTV
It was a hard year.
Txʰã̂n Sɔ̀a Pʰȍ.
Snow Go.down Now
It’s snowing now.
Txò Ci Txʰàen Jái Xôi Nə̀.
Set.Up Table In Main.room PFTV.
They’ve set up a table in the main room.
Tńjɔ Kwán Txò Ci Xâu Kə̀n Pɛ̂aɔ Tʰa Nə̀.
Spirits Because, Set.Up Food Lamp Over It PFTV
They’ve set up food and candles on it for the spirits [or: gods].
Note: People of this child’s social status generally ate on the floor. The rich would eat at tables. In this context, “table” means “altar.” For the rich, the table they’d lay offerings on would be much higher than one they would eat at.
Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Kaí Sɔ̂ Pɛ̂aɔ Kĺ. Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Kaí Tcʰwɛ̂ À Pɛ̂aɔ Kĺ.
They Eat First Over Us. They Eat Good Heavily Over Us.
They’re eating first, and they’re eating better than us.
Txut Cjá Wɔ́, Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Pwì Tsmȯ Kwán, Ə̃ Tʰɔ̀n Ki̇̇ Pwì Tcʰwɛ̂ À Pɛ̂aɔ Nȧ.
Reasonable But, They Give All Because, Proper Be Give Good Heavily Over Therefore
But, that makes sense: they gave us everything, so it’s only fair we give them the best.
Kʰja Tcí Í Lã̏ Jó Pʰȍ.
Sit Next.to Mom DEAR Now
I’m sitting next to Mom now.
Tʰa ɲǂȉ Wi̇̇ok Ljíɛŋ Pʰȍ.
She Talk Meal Night Now
She’s talking about how she made dinner.
Tʰɛ́ Kʰja Tcí Í Ŋûɛ Kà.
I Sit Next.to Window.
I’m sitting next to the window.
Ljíɛŋ Ŋóa, Klə̏ Nȧ Ki̇̇ Kȕa Nâŋ Ŋóa Ŋi̇̇, Wuk Pʰó Ŋóa Xéŋ Sn̏o Ki̇̇ Kʰjə̂ À Tsə́ Txʰã̂n À Tsə́.
Night Here, Portion Doer Be Near Arrive Here POSBL.FUT, Though Here Out House Is Wind Heavily And Snow Heavily And
Some of the neighbours might come over tonight, even though the wind is blustering and snowing outside.
Nâŋ Tu Ŋóa, Pɛ̇k Tʰɛ́ Nə̀, Tu Ŋóa Ki̇̇ Tu Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ.
Arrive Land Here, Said Me PFTV, Land Here Be Land Wyvern
I was told when I was moving here that this is wyvern country.
Tʰɛ́ Pʰȁ Tʰɛ́ Lȍɛ Tʰjȧ mʘâŋ Jaí Cú Sɔ̀u Òŋ.
I Wonder I See Wyvern In Year Front SBJNTV
I wonder if I’ll see any wyverns next year.
Some grammatical notes
The word order is strongly SVO. The line between subject and object in the sentence is sometimes not strictly enforced when a noun ends up at the end of one phrase and the beginning of another. Occasionally a speaker might construe VOS, often in these vague contexts. Ambiguity can be solved through a variety of ways if not wanted, for example the modifier Tí.
Adjectives and word modifiers are normally put after their modified (some, such as mass nouns). Due to displacement, this often means that Verb modifiers are put at the end of the head phrase, with this fact often helping to separate the phrases of the sentence.
The language is technically zero-marking, but often will have to say stuff because context renders this impossible. Zero marking can make the line between subject and object fuzzy, as noted above.
Tones á à ȁ â when the coda is (or used to be) a stop -> ȧ a à á
In the pre form, intense degree was shown with duplication, but this is no longer present the modern form: Sêem Tcop Tcop Tsʰoup -> Sɛ̃̂ Tcɔ À Tsʰɔə
ə is really ɯ but I’m too lazy to replace it. Same with c for ɕ and n for ɲ. (That’s basically what Romanization is anyways, right?)
My laziness is also the source for the lack of classifiers. But really, who needs them. (Like with Dzougedan, I will probably regret this statement and others like it.)
The language (aka me writing it) has a hard time handling two valencies in one verb. I tried getting around “for” constructions with a benefactive. I’m dreading the others. I need help. I am also having trouble linking “and” “when” and “that” phrases.
If you like, I would really appreciate if you could look through the corpus and tell me what stuff looks wrong. I hope to post some problems I have soon, but until then, it would help me a lot to know what looks wrong from others; points of view.
My internet where I am isn’t really able to get to the server, but it takes email. I’m going to try figuring something out. But I’m going to try reading and responding to every comment I can.
Last edited by Visions1 on 18 Dec 2023 00:54, edited 2 times in total.
Re: East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks
I sincerely appreciate your perspective. For years, I had battled myself over the perfect set of sounds, so often never getting to a grammar. My first ever language attempt, I scrapped because an aspect marker sounded too perfect to be followed up with anything I imagined could sound better. Now, after many failures, my current project is like all my other attempts in one, perfected, and because I let go. Realism, to me, is relying on certain attestations as guides, but granting ourselves the room to garner within our process exactly what you explained. Now, at the same time, let's not kid ourselves, we *know* when someone is just messing around with an inventory (ZygiliglethVisions1 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2023 12:01 I haven't yet made any nasal vowels with nasal codas yet. But it's a good question. I did make the word /ɲŋ́/ - "to fall," and I will make others like it.
Plus, in Hanoi Vietnamese, they have /ŋ͡m/ as a coda.
The /tx txʰ/ is just a "let's make my language unique" thing, but I was actually intending to evolve it from /kx kxʰ/ (in turn coming from q qʰ) - and also from a shifted /tɕ tɕʰ/. I based it off of tx and txʷ as clusters (not as a single phoneme) in Halkomelem.
Also I evolved the clicks from an attempt by the speakers to devoice and ejectivize their prenasalized implosive stops. Let's just say they failed perfectly.
Part of my conlanging worldview is - who cares about precedent anyways? It's it's technically possible, it's not impossible. Languages aren't really these purely logical things, often evolving on the fly (Wolof pronouns look like a conlang idea, and English and Japanese are too nuts to be conlanged, and Lushootseed has no nasals, etc). I've found that some of my best conlanging was forgetting the formal rules and saying "Hey, this looks interesting/convenient..." because that's how real languages evolve.
), or so certain they cracked a way to make a verbless language or whatever, but, overall, I imagine most happily ascribe to a process where they ultimately seek as close to possible as they can come. But all should remember that attestation does not prove the limits of the real.𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
Re: Swâŋ (East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks)
Sound changes so far:
0 present form
-1 /aa, ee, ii, oo, uu/ -> /a, e, i, o, u/, BUT /aaʔ, iiʔ/ -> /a#a, i#i/
-2 /a, e, i, o, u/ -> /a, ɛ, i, ɔ, ɯ/
-3 /aã, eẽ, iĩ, oõ, uũ/ -> /ã, ẽ, ĩ, õ, ũ/
-4 /Vm, V:m, Vp, V:p/ -> /Ṽn, Ṽ:n, Vʔ, V:ʔ/
-5 /mɓ nɗ ŋɠ/ -> /mʘ ɲǂ ŋǃ¡/
-6 /[aie], aio, aiu, [eia], [eio], [eiu], oia, [oie], oiu, uia, [uie], uio, uiu/ -> /[aee], aeo, aeu, [eea], [eeo], [eeu], oea, [oee], oeu, uea, [ue], ueo, ueu/; /aue, aui, [auo], eua, eui, [euo], iua, iue, [iuo], [oua], [oue], [oui]/ -> /aoe, aoi, [aoo], eoa, eoi, [eoo], ioa, ioe, [ioo], [ooa], [ooe], [ooi]/
I feel uneasy about the ones in brackets. I can see why Sinitic languages don't tend to have so many polyphtongs as Swâŋ does.
I hope to later find a way to evolve the vowels more primevally (Deleted intervocalic consonants? Final L changing vowels?). It looks like it wants to come from a /a i u ə/ system. Should it?
Also, I hope to delete final /s/ and /l/ from the protolang, and as mentioned above, play around with the affricates and evolve /q qʰ/ -> /kx kxʰ/ -> /tx txʰ/, and also ina super convoluted way do /ts tsʰ tc tcʰ/ -> /ts tsʰ tc tcʰ tx txʰ/.
0 present form
-1 /aa, ee, ii, oo, uu/ -> /a, e, i, o, u/, BUT /aaʔ, iiʔ/ -> /a#a, i#i/
-2 /a, e, i, o, u/ -> /a, ɛ, i, ɔ, ɯ/
-3 /aã, eẽ, iĩ, oõ, uũ/ -> /ã, ẽ, ĩ, õ, ũ/
-4 /Vm, V:m, Vp, V:p/ -> /Ṽn, Ṽ:n, Vʔ, V:ʔ/
-5 /mɓ nɗ ŋɠ/ -> /mʘ ɲǂ ŋǃ¡/
-6 /[aie], aio, aiu, [eia], [eio], [eiu], oia, [oie], oiu, uia, [uie], uio, uiu/ -> /[aee], aeo, aeu, [eea], [eeo], [eeu], oea, [oee], oeu, uea, [ue], ueo, ueu/; /aue, aui, [auo], eua, eui, [euo], iua, iue, [iuo], [oua], [oue], [oui]/ -> /aoe, aoi, [aoo], eoa, eoi, [eoo], ioa, ioe, [ioo], [ooa], [ooe], [ooi]/
I feel uneasy about the ones in brackets. I can see why Sinitic languages don't tend to have so many polyphtongs as Swâŋ does.
I hope to later find a way to evolve the vowels more primevally (Deleted intervocalic consonants? Final L changing vowels?). It looks like it wants to come from a /a i u ə/ system. Should it?
Also, I hope to delete final /s/ and /l/ from the protolang, and as mentioned above, play around with the affricates and evolve /q qʰ/ -> /kx kxʰ/ -> /tx txʰ/, and also ina super convoluted way do /ts tsʰ tc tcʰ/ -> /ts tsʰ tc tcʰ tx txʰ/.
Last edited by Visions1 on 11 Jan 2024 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
Finally organized the lexicon so far
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ie ... sp=sharing
Here's the lexicon so far. Now that it's posted I can start begging for help working on the grammar!
Here's the lexicon so far. Now that it's posted I can start begging for help working on the grammar!
Curently having trouble
So here's the thing: I've been trying to work out evolutions in pre-forms of Swang. But I'm having a lot of trouble going anywhere past my current pre phase. Here's where I'm stuck so far:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Note that several changes are not noted here: /Jii/ becomes /ci/ (overly platalized), /-aap/ and /-iip/ become /-a 'a/ and /-i 'i/ with a loss of tone-checking, and of course nasalised vowels (evolution noted above).
I've been thinking of evolving the vowels from a 4-vowel system (/a i u ə/), since it seems to fit nicely with the chart. But when I try to plug it in, it faces a lot of problems
I've also considered deriving vowels from lost codas (namely /l/, but maybe others too). That has turned out to be a lot more complicated that I thought.
I've tried both at once. It helps, but it even more complicated.
And frankly, I'd be happy to go along with something else, so long as it doesn't mess up the current inventory.
What should I do?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Note that several changes are not noted here: /Jii/ becomes /ci/ (overly platalized), /-aap/ and /-iip/ become /-a 'a/ and /-i 'i/ with a loss of tone-checking, and of course nasalised vowels (evolution noted above).
I've been thinking of evolving the vowels from a 4-vowel system (/a i u ə/), since it seems to fit nicely with the chart. But when I try to plug it in, it faces a lot of problems
I've also considered deriving vowels from lost codas (namely /l/, but maybe others too). That has turned out to be a lot more complicated that I thought.
I've tried both at once. It helps, but it even more complicated.
And frankly, I'd be happy to go along with something else, so long as it doesn't mess up the current inventory.
What should I do?
Re: Swâŋ (East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks)
Figured it out!
Basically, there will be two kinds of diphthong - long and short. /ae ai ao au etc./ vs. /ae: ai: ao: au: ect./
As well, coda /l/ can occur: /ael ail aol aul etc./, /ae:l ai:l ao:l au:l etc./ (These don't occur in triphthongs.)
So: /miak mia:k mialk mia:lk/
New rule:
[V1V2l/] ------------> [V1V2V2] (lengthen the last vowel)
[V1V2:l, V1V2:/] -------------> [V1V1V2] (lengthen the first vowel)
[Vl] --------> [VV]
[VVl] --------> [VV]
So: /mak malk maak maalk miak mia:k mialk mia:lk/ ---> /mak maak maak maak miak miiak miaak miiak/
Reasons: Technically, Sami has a distinction sort of like this. Also, since the language is tonal, where the tone's stress goes in a diphthong could make a difference.
Basically, there will be two kinds of diphthong - long and short. /ae ai ao au etc./ vs. /ae: ai: ao: au: ect./
As well, coda /l/ can occur: /ael ail aol aul etc./, /ae:l ai:l ao:l au:l etc./ (These don't occur in triphthongs.)
So: /miak mia:k mialk mia:lk/
New rule:
[V1V2l/] ------------> [V1V2V2] (lengthen the last vowel)
[V1V2:l, V1V2:/] -------------> [V1V1V2] (lengthen the first vowel)
[Vl] --------> [VV]
[VVl] --------> [VV]
So: /mak malk maak maalk miak mia:k mialk mia:lk/ ---> /mak maak maak maak miak miiak miaak miiak/
Reasons: Technically, Sami has a distinction sort of like this. Also, since the language is tonal, where the tone's stress goes in a diphthong could make a difference.
Re: Swâŋ (East-Asian monosyllabic lang with clicks)
Okay, so there's a problem with this: Short vowels become rare in modern lang. Currently, they are very common...
So, new idea:
Syllable structure is (C) V (V) (V/l) (T/N).
You can have long diphthongs (no 3-way distinction yet - either /ai/ or /ai:/).
Long diphthongs and triphthongs cannot take /l/
So:
/mo mol mok molk mon moln/
/moo mool mook moolk moon mooln/
/moi moil moik moilk moin moiln/
/moi: moi:k moi:n/
Sound changes:
Vl, V:, V:l ---> V:
VlN ---> V:N
VT, VLT ---> VT
V1V2l ---> V1V2V2
V1V2: ---> V1 V1V2
/mo moo mok mok mon moon/
/moo moo mook mook moon moon/
/moi moii moik moiik moin moiin/
/mooi mooik mooin/
So, new idea:
Syllable structure is (C) V (V) (V/l) (T/N).
You can have long diphthongs (no 3-way distinction yet - either /ai/ or /ai:/).
Long diphthongs and triphthongs cannot take /l/
So:
/mo mol mok molk mon moln/
/moo mool mook moolk moon mooln/
/moi moil moik moilk moin moiln/
/moi: moi:k moi:n/
Sound changes:
Vl, V:, V:l ---> V:
VlN ---> V:N
VT, VLT ---> VT
V1V2l ---> V1V2V2
V1V2: ---> V1 V1V2
/mo moo mok mok mon moon/
/moo moo mook mook moon moon/
/moi moii moik moiik moin moiin/
/mooi mooik mooin/
Basic Swâŋ phrases
The rules of thumb
It's a VO language, but described-then-describer (and by extension, owner-then-owned). If it's the first thing before a verb it must be a subject; if its the first thing after, it must be a direct object.
Morphology
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Basic sentences
Basic order is SVO:
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Tʰu
Wyvern Eat Deer
A wyvern eats a deer.
You don't need any partic. part of the sentence in order to make sense.
Kaí Tʰu
Eat Deer
[Something] eats a deer.
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ
Wyvern
Wyverns.
Tʰu Kaí
Deer eat
A deer eats.
More often then not, verb modifiers go at the end of of the whole phrase, instead of after the verb.
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Tʰu Nə̀
Wyvern Eat Deer PFTV
A wyvern ate a deer.
These can be stacked. Order matters - modals tend to go after aspects, other things after that.
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Tʰu Nə̀ Tʰíŋ
Wyvern Eat Deer PFTV QSTN
A wyvern ate a deer?
You can get away with putting the modifiers next to their verbs, but it comes off as archaic. But it's totally fine if necessary - such as if the end of the sentence gets clogged up.
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Nə̀ Tʰu Tʰíŋ
Wyvern Eat PFTV Deer QSTN
A wyvern ate a deer?
(Maybe this is valid...?
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Tʰíŋ Tʰu Nə̀
Wyvern Eat QSTN Deer PFTV
A wyvern ate??? a deer.)
This whole system of marking at the end of clauses makes conjunctions much less necessary. So much so I'm not going to discuss them now.
Txut Cjá Wɔ́, Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Pwì Tsmȯ Kwán
Reasonable But, They Give All Because
But, that makes sense: they gave us everything.
Verbs with valency two objects... currently are giving me trouble. I've started dislocating them and using the "Because" marker as an accusative case. Which I may keep.
Tʰu Kwán Tʰa ɲǂȉ Tȧ Òŋ
Deer because, he talk wolf SBJNCV
He would talk about Wolf to Deer.
I need to add a lot more to make the valency work. Any suggestions would be very welcome.
It's a VO language, but described-then-describer (and by extension, owner-then-owned). If it's the first thing before a verb it must be a subject; if its the first thing after, it must be a direct object.
Morphology
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Basic sentences
Basic order is SVO:
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Tʰu
Wyvern Eat Deer
A wyvern eats a deer.
You don't need any partic. part of the sentence in order to make sense.
Kaí Tʰu
Eat Deer
[Something] eats a deer.
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ
Wyvern
Wyverns.
Tʰu Kaí
Deer eat
A deer eats.
More often then not, verb modifiers go at the end of of the whole phrase, instead of after the verb.
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Tʰu Nə̀
Wyvern Eat Deer PFTV
A wyvern ate a deer.
These can be stacked. Order matters - modals tend to go after aspects, other things after that.
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Tʰu Nə̀ Tʰíŋ
Wyvern Eat Deer PFTV QSTN
A wyvern ate a deer?
You can get away with putting the modifiers next to their verbs, but it comes off as archaic. But it's totally fine if necessary - such as if the end of the sentence gets clogged up.
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Nə̀ Tʰu Tʰíŋ
Wyvern Eat PFTV Deer QSTN
A wyvern ate a deer?
(Maybe this is valid...?
Tʰjȧ-mʘâŋ Kaí Tʰíŋ Tʰu Nə̀
Wyvern Eat QSTN Deer PFTV
A wyvern ate??? a deer.)
This whole system of marking at the end of clauses makes conjunctions much less necessary. So much so I'm not going to discuss them now.
Txut Cjá Wɔ́, Tsʰɛ̀ŋ Pwì Tsmȯ Kwán
Reasonable But, They Give All Because
But, that makes sense: they gave us everything.
Verbs with valency two objects... currently are giving me trouble. I've started dislocating them and using the "Because" marker as an accusative case. Which I may keep.
Tʰu Kwán Tʰa ɲǂȉ Tȧ Òŋ
Deer because, he talk wolf SBJNCV
He would talk about Wolf to Deer.
I need to add a lot more to make the valency work. Any suggestions would be very welcome.
Re: Basic Swâŋ phrases
Do you want to have ambitransitives or causative auxiliaries or some prepositions for new arguments?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: Basic Swâŋ phrases
I forgot I have these, and probably other stuff. Here's what I remember so far.
Take a sentence like this:
Tʰu Kaí Sə̂
Deer Eat Cabbage
A deer eats cabbage.
You can change the order to OSV to make it more or less passive. (See rules of thumb.)
Sə̂ Tʰu Kaí
Cabbage, Deer Eat
Cabbage, a deer eats. (= Cabbage is eaten by a deer.)
Let's say we want a bigger phrase. This is what I can do so far with:
Wolf feeds deer cabbage.
Tȧ Pwì Sə̂ Tʰu Kaí (Tʰa)
Wolf Give Cabbage Deer Eat (it)
Tʰu Kaí Kwán, Tȧ Pwì Sə̂ (You could which phrase goes first, technically.)
Deer Eat Because, Wolf Give Cabbage
As in, "Wolf gives cabbage, because deer will eat it." Not "Deer eats, because wolf gave him cabbage." It's explaining the purpose more than the cause.
Sə̂ Tȧ Pwì Tʰu, Kaí Nȧ
Cabbage Wolf Give Deer, Eat Therefore
Lots of ambiguity here - who is eating what?
Tȧ Tʰȧk Tʰu Kaí Sə̂
Wolf Cause Deer Eat Cabbage
I like when you have more than one way of saying things in a conlang - real languages are like that.
This needs expansion though.