help needed - evolving proto phonology.

[eheshiu]

Hey folks,

I hope you're all doing well! I'm reaching out because I've hit a bit of a roadblock in my conlang project and could really use some assistance.

I'm working on evolving my proto-language phonology to its modern variant, and I'm feeling a bit stumped .

Proto language phonology:
Consonants:
ts tʃ dʒ qχ
pʰ p b t tʰ d q qʰ ɢ ʔ
ɾ
m n ɴ
ɸ θ s ʃ ɾ ʒ ʁ h
ɰ ɹ
vowels: i e o ee oo u a

proto syllable structure: (C1 (C2)) V (C)
where C1 can be any consonant and if stop or fricative it allows C2 which can be an approximant.

modern language phonology:
Consonants:
ts tɕ dʑ
p b t d k g ʔ
l ɾ
m n ɲ ŋ
v s ɕ x
j ɰ
Vowels: i e o ɛ æ ɔ u a

proto syllable structure: (C1 (C2)) V (C3)
where C1 can be any consonant and if stop or fricative it allows C2 which can be a liquid or approximant. C3 is any consonant except stops.

If anyone here has experience with language evolution, I'd love to get some guidance on how to make this transition smoothly. I have spent days making and deleting list from index diachronica and putting it on lexurgy. The only thing I know for certain is:

1. long vowels get lowered
2. ɯ is used mainly epenthetically
3. uvulars disappear and velars appear

A few personal notes: I don't know if it is prudent to have affricates since the protolang. One of the reasons I am struggling so much with this is that I feel it be too lazy doing something like a clear transfer from one phoneme to another, like all uvulars become velar evenly in a single change, or if I should also add ʑ or not. I am open to hearing suggestions to modify the proto phonology if that would make the evolution easier to elaborate or receiving any additional references that anyone might want to share.

[Visions1]

Welcome to the board!

I'm bad at sound changes, but if there's any advice I can give, it's that small, step-by-step changes can go a long way.
As well, things don't tend to just disappear - they often weaken first and/or effect their surroundings before taking a bow and leaving.

I love how you use uvulars instead of velars. Once, I saw (thank G-d, not on here) someone criticizing another's inventory for having /p t c q/, calling it unnatural - despite the fact that Saanich does that!! The IPA isn't this perfectly exact thing (queso and point, the mad allophony of /t/ in English or Spanish), and I like how you flubbed the lines to get something fun out of it. I think you could make some really interesting changes from the uvulars affecting the vowels around them as they turn into velars.
I'd change /ɹ/ to /ɹw/ in the proto-lang so it contrasts with its partner (rhotic vs. non-rhotic), and /qx/ to /qX/.

As for changes, I'd get /l/ from /ɾ/ (determined by surroundings at some step).
I'd especially recommend lenitiating the fricatives /ɸ θ h/ until they disappear, since their soft and breathy - but leaving effects behind. Say like this: /ɸ θ h/ -> /h h ʔ/ -> /∅ ∅ ʔ/, but say /ɸɹw θɹw/ would become /hɰ/ (because they're both labial) and /tɹw/ (one is, one isn't), becoming /ɰ t/ respectively.
Normally in languages, long /o e/ stay the same while short /e o/ get lowered instead. I think adding a long /a/ would make vowel evolution easier - but maybe you'd prefer to instead add vowels through say consonantal influences.
/ʑ/ makes sense for a transitional form of /ʒ/.

If you have some texts, relevant grammatical rules, and esp. some info about that /ɯ/, it'd be a big help.

[sangi39]

FROM

ts tʃ dʒ qχ
pʰ p b t tʰ d q qʰ ɢ ʔ
ɸ θ s ʃ ɾ ʒ ʁ h
m n ɴ
ɾ
ɰ ɹ

Vowels: i e o ee oo u a

(C/PA)V(C)


TO

ts tɕ dʑ
p b t d k g ʔ
l ɾ
m n ɲ ŋ
v s ɕ x
j ɰ

Vowels: i e o ɛ æ ɔ u a

(C/PA)V(F)


So one big change you is for plosives to no longer be permitted in syllable-final position, which could be very good for your vowels

Rule 1: Allophonic lowering of /i e o e: o: u a/ to [ɪ ɛ ɔ ɛ: ɔ: ʊ ɑ] when adjacent to any uvular sound, e.g. /qi aɢ/ > [qɪ ɑɢ]
Rule 2: Aspirated plosives merge into their fricative counterparts when syllable-final, i.e. /pʰ tʰ qʰ/ > [ɸ θ χ] (with syllable-final /qχ/ merging into [χ] as well)
Rule 3: Voiced plosives shift into their fricative counterparts, i.e. /b d ɢ/ > [v ð ʁ]
Rule 4: Voiceless unaspirated plosives merge into [ʔ] when syllable-final, and then drop out

This leaves some instances of [ɪ ɛ ɔ ɛ: ɔ: ʊ ɑ] in open syllables when not adjacent to uvulars. These continue to move around, becoming [e ɛ ɔ ɛ: ɔ: o a]
Followed by all instances of /e: o:/ become /ɛ: ɔ:/, and then [ɛ: ɔ:] > [ɛ ɔ] as well as /a/ > [æ]

This is then followed by /qʰ q ɢ qχ ʁ ɴ/ > /kʰ k g x ɰ ŋ/ causing the vowels [ɛ ɔ] to become phonemic (you could probably achieve some of this to occur as the result of vowel affection as well, e.g. /iCa/ > [eCa], especially with some vowel mergers in unstressed syllables, but you may as well get at least some of them using the uvulars)

/tʃ dʒ/ > /tɕ dʑ/* us a simple enough change, as well as /ɸ/ > [x] (might have happened in some Mongolic languages?)

As Visions1 said, something like /ɹ/ > /l/ is easy enough as well

You could probably get some use out of the voiced plosives too, e.g. /d/ > /l/ and /g/ > /x/, and then have the remaining aspirate/unaspirate distinction in plosives become voiceless/voiced (could have some merging of the unaspirated stops into the original voiced stops as well, if there are any environments in which they're retained, e.g. word-initially, e.g. /pa ba/ > /ba ba/ vs. /apa aba/ > /aba ava/

/ʃ ʒ/ > /ɕ j/ too

There's a lot you can to with /θ/, and you could probably make that a dialectal feature in the daughter language, e.g. one dialect has [t] where another has [ s]

*Some instances of /tɕ dʑ ɕ/ could come from palatalisation as well of /t d s/, e.g. /ti/ > [tɕi]. If you have a sequence like /tiha/ > [tiha] > [ti.a] > [tia] > [tɕja] > [tɕa], that would make some of those instances of palatalisation occur before non-high non-front vowels. Same for /ɲ/


There's definitely some stuff you can do without messing around too much with your original syllable structure, but still give results that use the features of your proto-language

[Arayaz]

There's a lot you can to with /θ/, and you could probably make that a dialectal feature in the daughter language, e.g. one dialect has [t] where another has [ s ]

*Some instances of /tɕ dʑ ɕ/ could come from palatalisation as well of /t d s/, e.g. /ti/ > [tɕi]. If you have a sequence like /tiha/ > [tiha] > [ti.a] > [tia] > [tɕja] > [tɕa], that would make some of those instances of palatalisation occur before non-high non-front vowels. Same for /ɲ/


There's definitely some stuff you can do without messing around too much with your original syllable structure, but still give results that use the features of your proto-language

Reminder that /s/, like /b/ and /i/, is one of Markdown's Forbidden Phones ─ you need to space the brackets away lest ye invoke the dreaded Strikethroughe.

[sangi39]

There's a lot you can to with /θ/, and you could probably make that a dialectal feature in the daughter language, e.g. one dialect has [t] where another has [ s ]

*Some instances of /tɕ dʑ ɕ/ could come from palatalisation as well of /t d s/, e.g. /ti/ > [tɕi]. If you have a sequence like /tiha/ > [tiha] > [ti.a] > [tia] > [tɕja] > [tɕa], that would make some of those instances of palatalisation occur before non-high non-front vowels. Same for /ɲ/


There's definitely some stuff you can do without messing around too much with your original syllable structure, but still give results that use the features of your proto-language

Reminder that /s/, like /b/ and /i/, is one of Markdown's Forbidden Phones ─ you need to space the brackets away lest ye invoke the dreaded Strikethroughe.

Honestly, I'm annoyed at myself for that 1) a moderator, 2) been on this version of the CBB since day one, 3) was on the old version, which had the same thing, because yay square brackets... you'd think I'd know better

[Arayaz]

There's a lot you can to with /θ/, and you could probably make that a dialectal feature in the daughter language, e.g. one dialect has [t] where another has [ s ]

*Some instances of /tɕ dʑ ɕ/ could come from palatalisation as well of /t d s/, e.g. /ti/ > [tɕi]. If you have a sequence like /tiha/ > [tiha] > [ti.a] > [tia] > [tɕja] > [tɕa], that would make some of those instances of palatalisation occur before non-high non-front vowels. Same for /ɲ/


There's definitely some stuff you can do without messing around too much with your original syllable structure, but still give results that use the features of your proto-language

Reminder that /s/, like /b/ and /i/, is one of Markdown's Forbidden Phones ─ you need to space the brackets away lest ye invoke the dreaded Strikethroughe.

Honestly, I'm annoyed at myself for that 1) a moderator, 2) been on this version of the CBB since day one, 3) was on the old version, which had the same thing, because yay square brackets... you'd think I'd know better

No worries. I've done it too.

[Visions1]

I said /l/ from /ɾ/, but your way makes a lot more sense
Honestly, I learnt a lot from your post, Sangii.
Also, markdown's forbidden phonemes?

[Arayaz]

Also, markdown's forbidden phonemes?

Some phonemes may not be represented in square brackets, because Markdown treats them as, well, Markdown.
[ i ], [ s ], [ b ], and [ u ] are the forbidden phonemes that I can think of.

Or, feeding the demon by not properly spacing:
, , , and are the forbidden phonemes that I can think of.

[Visions1]

It really does look cursed.