Aesthetically, that'd be my choice. But in terms of commonality and ease of typing/character compatibility, it seems as though g should be a forerunner.DesEsseintes wrote:ɣ
Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Polylang
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang
Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang
DesEsseintes wrote:Left to my own devices, I would never have come up with Kanejam's v. Mind. Blown.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang
I know it's attested, but using v for a velar can be unintuitive to many readers. especially me! If that's something you wanna avoid, perhaps do v for /w/ and w for /ɰ/?
"Peace...? No peace!"
Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang
Oooh, that could be nice.QuantumWraith wrote:I know it's attested, but using v for a velar can be unintuitive to many readers. especially me! If that's something you wanna avoid, perhaps do v for /w/ and w for /ɰ/?
Actually I can't really say I have anything against any of the options.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang
Tiny post.
I've come up with two personal endings for intransitive verbs. These are used in polite speech. The variants are used after vowels and consonants respectively.
1s -nınee/-enee
2s -nuweeł/-oweeł
As a little glimpse of what I'm going for as regards morphology, here's a glossed sample:
Neenfúyòòsásíınuweeł?
neenı-fú-yòòs-ásíı-nuweeł
Q-N.IRR-good-APPL-2s.POL
Would that be alright with you?
I've come up with two personal endings for intransitive verbs. These are used in polite speech. The variants are used after vowels and consonants respectively.
1s -nınee/-enee
2s -nuweeł/-oweeł
As a little glimpse of what I'm going for as regards morphology, here's a glossed sample:
Neenfúyòòsásíınuweeł?
neenı-fú-yòòs-ásíı-nuweeł
Q-N.IRR-good-APPL-2s.POL
Would that be alright with you?
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - Another Esseintial Speedlang
I'm going to be practical and use g for the romanisation of /ɰ/. I'm kind of disappointed in myself for doing this after all the good ideas offered by other CBBers in this thread.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology
It's been a few weeks since I started this thread and nothing much has happened. I've got quite a few ideas for this lang, but I don't think the Arapaho phonology was doing it for me. Much as I love the look of Arapaho, I don't seem to be able to work with it very well.
I have therefore decided to redo the phonology by incorporating some new ideas I've had.
New Phonology Sketch
In this post, I'm only going to deal with the consonants. The consonant inventory has become a bit smaller and more symmetrical.
Although I'm not going to deal with the vowels at this point, it's worth bearing in mind that there will be front rounded vowels, as they enter into some of the allophony below.
"Deep" Consonant Inventory
There are 14 or 15 underlying consonant phonemes.
|n ŋ|
|t t͡s t͡ɬ k ʔ|
|θ s ɬ x h|
|(w) j~ɥ ɰ|
I believe |w ɰ| may be one phoneme.
Allophony
So far I've got
• |ŋ k x| are /m b ɸ/ before /u y/
• |ŋw kw xw| are /m b ɸ/ before /i/
• |ŋ k x| are [ɲ] /t͡ʃ ʃ/ before /j/
• |t͡s s| are /t͡ʃ ʃ/ before /y j/
I'm wondering whether to reduce the inventory further by finding more allophonic relationships between the phonemes I've got. Another idea would be to remove the glottals.
I'm not sure why I'm so intent on having a small inventory. I make this mistake every time and regret it later... but it is elegant.
Surface Consonant Inventory
Many of the allophony rules above apply at the root level, so we wind up with the following inventory, shown here with my provisional ideas for the romanisation:
/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
/b t t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k ʔ/ b t ts tł ch k '
/ɸ θ s ɬ ʃ x h/ f þ s ł sh x h
/w j~ɥ ɰ/ w y ɣ
Note that /ɲ/ is missing. It is not phonemic in root morphemes and only occurs as a realisation of /nj ŋj/. Therefore, it will simply be written ny.
Voiced Consonants?
- I'm wondering whether to add /ð z l ʒ/ either at the phonemic or phonetic level. They might be quite fun with the front rounded vowels.
So, there have been quite a few changes. I hope to post the new vowels soon.
I have therefore decided to redo the phonology by incorporating some new ideas I've had.
New Phonology Sketch
In this post, I'm only going to deal with the consonants. The consonant inventory has become a bit smaller and more symmetrical.
Although I'm not going to deal with the vowels at this point, it's worth bearing in mind that there will be front rounded vowels, as they enter into some of the allophony below.
"Deep" Consonant Inventory
There are 14 or 15 underlying consonant phonemes.
|n ŋ|
|t t͡s t͡ɬ k ʔ|
|θ s ɬ x h|
|(w) j~ɥ ɰ|
I believe |w ɰ| may be one phoneme.
Allophony
So far I've got
• |ŋ k x| are /m b ɸ/ before /u y/
• |ŋw kw xw| are /m b ɸ/ before /i/
• |ŋ k x| are [ɲ] /t͡ʃ ʃ/ before /j/
• |t͡s s| are /t͡ʃ ʃ/ before /y j/
I'm wondering whether to reduce the inventory further by finding more allophonic relationships between the phonemes I've got. Another idea would be to remove the glottals.
I'm not sure why I'm so intent on having a small inventory. I make this mistake every time and regret it later... but it is elegant.
Surface Consonant Inventory
Many of the allophony rules above apply at the root level, so we wind up with the following inventory, shown here with my provisional ideas for the romanisation:
/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
/b t t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k ʔ/ b t ts tł ch k '
/ɸ θ s ɬ ʃ x h/ f þ s ł sh x h
/w j~ɥ ɰ/ w y ɣ
Note that /ɲ/ is missing. It is not phonemic in root morphemes and only occurs as a realisation of /nj ŋj/. Therefore, it will simply be written ny.
Voiced Consonants?
- I'm wondering whether to add /ð z l ʒ/ either at the phonemic or phonetic level. They might be quite fun with the front rounded vowels.
So, there have been quite a few changes. I hope to post the new vowels soon.
Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology
I like it. Especially the velars becoming bilabials.
It would be interesting having voicing distinction is fricatives but not in plosives.
It would be interesting having voicing distinction is fricatives but not in plosives.
DesEsseintes wrote:/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology
Dezinaa wrote:I like it. Especially the velars becoming bilabials.
It would be interesting having voicing distinction is fricatives but not in plosives.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology
Thanks. And I'm going for the voicing distinction. See below.Dezinaa wrote:I like it. Especially the velars becoming bilabials. It would be interesting having voicing distinction is fricatives but not in plosives.
Yeah. I loved the look of ƞ in your ʼiinìm and so adopted it.Dezinaa wrote:DesEsseintes wrote:/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Phonology
New Phonology - Part 2
Decision time!
Consonants
I've decided to include the voiced fricatives. The surface phoneme inventory is therefore like this:
/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
/b t t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k ʔ/ b t ts tł ch k '
/ɸ θ s ɬ ʃ x h/ f þ s ł sh x h
/w ð z l ʒ j~ɥ ɰ/ w đ z l zh y ɣ
Vowels
I promised to make a decision as regards the new vowel inventory before the day is out, so here it is.
For those of you who followed the voting going on over in the Yay/Nay thread, I went for option "new B". One day though I'll make a lang with option D.
Enough preamble. Here are the vowels.
Short monophthongs
/i y ɨ~ɯ u/ ı ų ɯ u
/ɛ œ ɔ/ e ǫ o
/ɑ/ a
- high short monophthongs are often realised lax [ɪ ʏ ɨ ʊ]
Long monophthongs
/iː yː ɯː uː/ ıı ųų ɯɯ uu
/ɛː œː ɔː/ ee ǫǫ oo
/ɑː/ aa
Short diphthongs
/eɪ̯ øʏ̯ oʊ̯/ eı ǫų ou
/aɪ̯ ɑɯ̯̽ ɑʊ̯/ aı aɯ au
Long diphthongs
/iːɛ yːɛ ɯːɑ uːɑ/ ııe ųųe ɯɯa uua
/iːœ yːœ ɯːɔ uːɔ/ ııǫ ųųǫ ɯɯo uuo
/ɛɪ̯ː œʏ̯ː ɔʊ̯ː/ eeı ǫǫų oou (but eey ǫǫy oow word-finally)
/aɪ̯ː ɑɯ̯̽ː ɑʊ̯ː/ aaı aaɯ aau (but aay aaɣ aaw word-finally
- /aɪ̯ː ɑʊ̯ː/ are probably rare
Triphthongs
/eɪ̯ɛ øʏ̯ɛ oʊ̯a/ eıe ǫųe oua
/eɪ̯œ øʏ̯œ oʊ̯ɔ/ eıǫ ǫųǫ ouo
Notes:
- The structure of the system is roughly the same as in the original system, but with the added dimensions of front rounded vowels and back unrounded vowels
- I think back unrounded vowels will have a relatively limited distribution
- I'm considering adding the long diphthongs /eiː øyː ɤɯː ouː/ eıı ǫųų aɯɯ ouu but I might have /ɤɯː/ mysteriously missing
The next post should be on glides and how they interact with surrounding phonemes. Or perhaps it will be sth completely different.
Decision time!
Consonants
I've decided to include the voiced fricatives. The surface phoneme inventory is therefore like this:
/m n ŋ/ m n ƞ
/b t t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k ʔ/ b t ts tł ch k '
/ɸ θ s ɬ ʃ x h/ f þ s ł sh x h
/w ð z l ʒ j~ɥ ɰ/ w đ z l zh y ɣ
Vowels
I promised to make a decision as regards the new vowel inventory before the day is out, so here it is.
For those of you who followed the voting going on over in the Yay/Nay thread, I went for option "new B". One day though I'll make a lang with option D.
Enough preamble. Here are the vowels.
Short monophthongs
/i y ɨ~ɯ u/ ı ų ɯ u
/ɛ œ ɔ/ e ǫ o
/ɑ/ a
- high short monophthongs are often realised lax [ɪ ʏ ɨ ʊ]
Long monophthongs
/iː yː ɯː uː/ ıı ųų ɯɯ uu
/ɛː œː ɔː/ ee ǫǫ oo
/ɑː/ aa
Short diphthongs
/eɪ̯ øʏ̯ oʊ̯/ eı ǫų ou
/aɪ̯ ɑɯ̯̽ ɑʊ̯/ aı aɯ au
Long diphthongs
/iːɛ yːɛ ɯːɑ uːɑ/ ııe ųųe ɯɯa uua
/iːœ yːœ ɯːɔ uːɔ/ ııǫ ųųǫ ɯɯo uuo
/ɛɪ̯ː œʏ̯ː ɔʊ̯ː/ eeı ǫǫų oou (but eey ǫǫy oow word-finally)
/aɪ̯ː ɑɯ̯̽ː ɑʊ̯ː/ aaı aaɯ aau (but aay aaɣ aaw word-finally
- /aɪ̯ː ɑʊ̯ː/ are probably rare
Triphthongs
/eɪ̯ɛ øʏ̯ɛ oʊ̯a/ eıe ǫųe oua
/eɪ̯œ øʏ̯œ oʊ̯ɔ/ eıǫ ǫųǫ ouo
Notes:
- The structure of the system is roughly the same as in the original system, but with the added dimensions of front rounded vowels and back unrounded vowels
- I think back unrounded vowels will have a relatively limited distribution
- I'm considering adding the long diphthongs /eiː øyː ɤɯː ouː/ eıı ǫųų aɯɯ ouu but I might have /ɤɯː/ mysteriously missing
The next post should be on glides and how they interact with surrounding phonemes. Or perhaps it will be sth completely different.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - An Esseintial Speedlang - New Vowels!
Phonotactics - Ideas
Here are some ideas I have so far for phonotactics.
The basic syllabic structure is CV(R(ː))
C is any consonant, and is required except word-initially (probably; not entirely decided yet).
V can be any of the long or short monophthongs, diphthongs and triphthongs listed in the vowels section above.
R is optional and is any of /n ɬ h/. All can also occur geminate in this position except word-finally.
/n/ assimilates to the PoA of the following consonant.
The realisation of /h/ is more complex.
- After a [-high] vowel /h/ is realised as [h]
- After a high vowel or diphthong ending in a high vowel and before a stop or affricate, /h/ is realised as the fricative corresponding to the PoA of the following consonant. Using e and ı as examples of a non-high and high vowel, we get the following possible vowel+cluster combos:
eh' ehh' ıh' ıhh'
ehk ehhk ıxk ıxxk
ehch ehhch ıshch ısshch
ehtł ehhtł ıshtł ısshtł
ehts ehhts ısts ıssts
eht ehht ıþt ıþþt
ehb ehhb ıfb ıffb
Note how tł is considered to have the same PoA as ch.
I like the clusters this yields, especially some of the weirder one like ffb and sshtł.
I want geminate fricatives to be possible as well. I'm not sure yet whether they are a result of /h/+fricative sequences or their own thing.
Furthermore, /x/ can be form a cluster as the final element after any consonant or cluster. So sequences such as h'x nnchx xkx are possible.
Here are some sample words to demonstrate some of the possibilities.
yííxke
yųsshchųųmųt
ahhtsá
ehhteıe
yíþþtǫų'ųsxų
ƞwèèìstse
mǫųffbíínıþ
It's looking a bit weird, but I think I like it.
I'm not sure how the voiced fricatives fit in with all this. They're in danger of being dropped again, I'm afraid.
Here are some ideas I have so far for phonotactics.
The basic syllabic structure is CV(R(ː))
C is any consonant, and is required except word-initially (probably; not entirely decided yet).
V can be any of the long or short monophthongs, diphthongs and triphthongs listed in the vowels section above.
R is optional and is any of /n ɬ h/. All can also occur geminate in this position except word-finally.
/n/ assimilates to the PoA of the following consonant.
The realisation of /h/ is more complex.
- After a [-high] vowel /h/ is realised as [h]
- After a high vowel or diphthong ending in a high vowel and before a stop or affricate, /h/ is realised as the fricative corresponding to the PoA of the following consonant. Using e and ı as examples of a non-high and high vowel, we get the following possible vowel+cluster combos:
eh' ehh' ıh' ıhh'
ehk ehhk ıxk ıxxk
ehch ehhch ıshch ısshch
ehtł ehhtł ıshtł ısshtł
ehts ehhts ısts ıssts
eht ehht ıþt ıþþt
ehb ehhb ıfb ıffb
Note how tł is considered to have the same PoA as ch.
I like the clusters this yields, especially some of the weirder one like ffb and sshtł.
I want geminate fricatives to be possible as well. I'm not sure yet whether they are a result of /h/+fricative sequences or their own thing.
Furthermore, /x/ can be form a cluster as the final element after any consonant or cluster. So sequences such as h'x nnchx xkx are possible.
Here are some sample words to demonstrate some of the possibilities.
yííxke
yųsshchųųmųt
ahhtsá
ehhteıe
yíþþtǫų'ųsxų
ƞwèèìstse
mǫųffbíínıþ
It's looking a bit weird, but I think I like it.
I'm not sure how the voiced fricatives fit in with all this. They're in danger of being dropped again, I'm afraid.
Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact
Everything looks good so far, but I love this word especially.DesEsseintes wrote:yííxke
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact
What should it mean? I think it's a common noun.shimobaatar wrote:Everything looks good so far, but I love this word especially.DesEsseintes wrote:yííxke
Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact
Maybe some sort of small animal that the speakers would see regularly? But not domesticated. Maybe something squirrel-like?DesEsseintes wrote:What should it mean? I think it's a common noun.shimobaatar wrote:Everything looks good so far, but I love this word especially.DesEsseintes wrote:yííxke
By the way, what does the NP: Phonotactics in the thread title mean? I've seen some other thread titles doing something similar, and I assumed it stood for "noun phrase", but that doesn't make sense in the context of phonotactics.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact
I thought it means "now playing," but probably not.shimobaatar wrote:By the way, what does the NP: Phonotactics in the thread title mean? I've seen some other thread titles doing something similar, and I assumed it stood for "noun phrase", but that doesn't make sense in the context of phonotactics.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact
yííxke n coyoteshimobaatar wrote:Maybe some sort of small animal that the speakers would see regularly? But not domesticated. Maybe something squirrel-like?DesEsseintes wrote:What should it mean? I think it's a common noun.shimobaatar wrote:Everything looks good so far, but I love this word especially.DesEsseintes wrote:yííxke
OP = opening postBy the way, what does the NP: Phonotactics in the thread title mean? I've seen some other thread titles doing something similar, and I assumed it stood for "noun phrase", but that doesn't make sense in the context of phonotactics.
NP = new post
Or that's what I think it means.
Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact
to "coyote".
"new post" and "now playing" both sound fitting to me.
"new post" and "now playing" both sound fitting to me.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact
Well, DesEsseintes. You've made a right mess of this thread... It's time to tidy things up a bit and turn over a new leaf.
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Re: Hííenununóóoþa - an Esseintial Speedlang - NP: Phonotact
So here it comes...