Poem - In the Dark - In Etihus

[Sew'Kyetuh]

How about you do this poem, it seems to have many kinds of grammatical structures: https://telescoper.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... -gekommen/

At first I was afraid because my lexicon is only up to about 750 words (plus maybe a few hundred more on variation) but it looks like most of the words here I’ve got in the inventory. Some of it I had to go back to the original German to more accurately translate a few lines, and when that is done I provide them below English in parentheses.

Vhsh-Meer’Et ess
Sec-tit vh doe’it ral sec
Sec-itmix vh etih’ess sec
!Sec-thab sec tj vh ffut.

Secab ari ral vh ess
Vh rit shm’ess
Sec-thab sec tj vh ffut
Vshsec-ess

Vh ab ffuh kyema-Meer’Et, ral
!Vh fit ral zh’kyess.
Secab-vh ral zariqu, ral
Ws ral ust vh.

=
This was the words broken down as best I could. English is on the top, Etihus is the second line, and the transliteration word-order I attempted to come up with in italics. Still trying to figure out some of the glossing and sort through the terms therein.

I am lost to the world
Vhsh-Meer’Et ess
I [connected/see-eye-to-eye] with world not

with which I used to waste so much time,
Sec-tit vh doe’it ral sec
[During] the past with I spoil/degraded-time with it

It has heard nothing from me for so long
Sec-itmix vh etih’ess sec
[During] long time I communicate-not with it

that it may very well believe that I am dead!
!Sec-thab sec tj vh ffut.
<Exclaim> The-possible it thinking/considering me dead


It is of no consequence to me,
(Es ist mir auch gar nichts daran gelegen,)
Secab ari ral vh ess
The-is/state/existence blessing in/with me nothing

*Whether it thinks me dead;
I cannot deny it, (I can also say nothing against it)
for I really am dead to the world.

Vh rit shm’ess
I will correct not

Sec-thab sec tj vh ffut
The-possible it thinking/considering me dead

Vshsec-ess
I alignment it not


I am dead to the world’s tumult, And
Vh ab ffuh kyema-Meer’Et, ral
I equal dead disturbance-wrath/anger world and

I rest in a quiet realm!
!Vh fit ral zh’kyess.
<Exclaim >I rest within location-disturbed-not


I live alone in my heaven, In
Secab-vh ral zariqu, ral
The-is/state/existence mine within cloud-nine

My love and in my song!
Ws ral ust vh.
Preference/love and/in song mine


*The last three lines of the second paragraph were tricky and took me awhile because information conveyed in Etihus is very exact, and culturally what you do is what you are, and the language structure reflects this. But this was made to be poetic after all.

[HoskhMatriarch]

Glosses, please. I can tell there are for some reason no conjunctions, but I can't tell what all the hyphens and apostrophes are for...

[clawgrip]

Interesting challenge, and difficult to translate to Yabushionese, but I've done my best. When the Yabushionese meaning differs significantly, I have added my own retranslation in parentheses:

Yabushionese

我との絆を失ったっ世界んて
あんなに時間を無駄にしけのに
我の姿の消へたけえの間が余りに長う
死んだと思はれいも當然なや

我にさしたるっ事なず
死んだと思はれいも
否認出來ず
死んだのは眞なけえ

世界の亂れけえ往んだ
静かの空間にて休んめ
自分の樂園に獨りして住んめ
自分の愛、自分の唄


我との絆を失ったっ世界んて
Wai to no kizuna ọ ushinattas-sekai nte
1 with GEN bond ACC lose-PERF-ATTR world LOC
I am lost to the world (in the world that has lost bonds to me)

あんなに時間を無駄にしけのに
Anna ni jikan ọ muda ni shike no ni
DIST-kind ADV time ACC waste to do-PST even=though
with which I used to waste so much time, (even though I wasted so much time)

我の姿の消へたけえの間が余りに長う
Wai no sugata no kifeta kē no afida ga amari ni nagō
1 GEN shape NOM disappear-PST from GEN interval NOM remain ADV long.ADV
It has heard nothing from me for so long (My form has been gone from there for so long)

死んだと思はれいも當然なや
Shinda to omofarei mo tọ̄zen na ya
die-PERF COMPL think-PASS-ADV even natural COP EMPH
that it may very well believe that I am dead! (it is natural to think me dead)

我にさしたるっ事なず
Wai ni sashitaruk-koto nazu
1 DAT (not)significant-ATTR matter COP-NEG
It is of no consequence to me (to me it is not important)

死んだと思はれいも
Shinda to omofarei mo
die-PERF COMPL think-PASS-ADV even
Whether it thinks me dead; (even if I am thought dead)

否認出來ず
Finin dekizu
denial can.do-NEG
I cannot deny it,

死んだのは眞なけえ
Shinda no fa shin na kē
die-PERF N TOP truth COP because
for I really am dead to the world. (because it is true that I am dead)

世界の亂れけえ往んだ
Sekai no midare kē inda
world GEN disorder from leave/die-PERF
I am dead to the world’s tumult,

静かの空間にて休んめ
Shizuka no kūkan nite yasumme
quiet ATTR space LOC rest-IMPERF
And I rest in a quiet realm! (I am resting in a quiet space)

自分の樂園に獨りして住んめ
Jibun no rakuen ni fitori shite sumi
self GEN paradise LOC alone INST live-ADV
I live alone in my heaven,

自分の愛、自分の唄
Jibun no ai, jibun no uta
self GEN love self GEN song
In my love and in my song! (own love, own song)

[Sew'Kyetuh]

Interesting challenge, and difficult to translate to Yabushionese, but I've done my best.

Excellent! I didn't expect anyone else to try, but now I have a few glossing examples to follow (I haven't fully glossed anything and I'm still trying to figure it out).

[Sew'Kyetuh]

Glosses, please. I can tell there are for some reason no conjunctions, but I can't tell what all the hyphens and apostrophes are for...

I'm going to try my best at this, but remember a few things:

1. I'm purposefully ignoring the glossing rule about morphemes.
This is because each morpheme in Etihus represents a family of related concepts which grants them multiple, flexible meanings. Additionally, the morphemes (all of which are free morphemes) can be contracted together into compound words and ligatures (which are spoken by using only pieces of the morphemes to create the word). Etihus is an oligosynthetic language (only about 60 morphemes), so very likely there aren't going to be any more additions.

So what you are seeing in English is the closest translated approximation (even in the gloss). Because for the most part, not a single morpheme in Etihus (and several words) corresponds to any [single] word in English.


2a. Zero copula. In every tense. (There is no 'to be' in Etihus, present tense or otherwise.)
2b. In the translation, there's only 1 verb. (shm)
I don't know if that makes any massive difference (I imagine it could), but just fyi.


3. A single word is not always going to mean exactly the same thing.
In Etihus, the same word will change it's part of speech and usage (and sometimes meaning) based on where it is placed. A sentence in Etihus is made up of a string of abstract thoughts, as opposed to an "event", unless otherwise noted. The presence of a verb redirects the flow of information differently and signals the sentence in question is an event with an action.

"Semaphonemes" as I call them in Etihus are morphemes that correspond to an entire small family of an abstract concept. They are the most basic units to the language meaning there are technically no letters. I know this doesn't mean much to glossing but just pointing it out in case it matters. For example, may as a semaphoneme is represented by a single glyph, being (in the conlang), a grapheme, and a free morpheme to indicate something akin to "circular, same point, redundant". There is no English word that can simply lay out that as a morpheme (or any of the morphemes for that matter).

So something like: "Mayee'ait-ihff" consists of 6 morphemes between two words, each morpheme which correspond to 6 families of abstract concepts with multiple meanings in English.


4. I do not think I presently have a full grasp of how glossing works.
So be aware there might be a few errors.

---

The usual usage difference between the apostrophe (') and the hyphen (-) is that the apostrophe divides the collection of two words/morphemes together to create a compound word. The hyphen divides two words together to form a phrase. In both cases the second word/morpheme is still always modifying the previous. This relationship is the same and both insinuate the use of a short pause (or in the apostrophe's case, a glottal stop?). The apostrophe is written as a symbol in the orthography while the hyphen is "represented" as a short space. Completely separate words are divided by a longer space.

So for the attempted glossing, I am ignoring the apostrophe and simply treating them as a single word. Otherwise, the gloss of a single line of text could require an entire paragraph of glossing.

---

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Lao Kou]

Géarthnuns

Sí Lö Chö Öbelöbsöv Menthmaz

Sí lö chö öbelöbsöv menthmaz,
Söböv sí lö sí mnwölsít ezgaulít aukhbrelü hefpökh;
Fökh lö fín shahövepsat chönü thon íaushal,
Söb la, gü sí lö höisfaikh sho, tha'u hauhauth!

Ve hereçkegs la fík téjü brin,
Söb la sít se sfaikhölöthseb sfen gérü höihaöbef;
Fí la helkeveçö hé ba ngkföl kalokh,
Sí lö auvaç chö öbelöbsöv flaní hemensfaikh.

Sí lö chí öbelöbölekelsív mensfaikh,
La orha sa dínsav évashanav shuvaz!
Sí la hasíra'u che ögíuthsev dvüzçethev pez,
Chí shesölsív dvüzçelív, che shírethsev dvüzçethev pez.

---

Sí lö chö öbelöbsöv menthmaz,
1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF DEF world-LOC away.get.lost
Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen,
I am lost to the world

Söböv sí lö sí mnwölsít ezgaulít aukhbrelü hefpökh;
3SG-LOC 1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF INDEF time-ACC much-ACC nevertheless-ADV waste-CONCL
Mit der ich sonst viele Zeit verdorben,
with which I used to waste so much time,

Fökh lö fín shahövepsat chönü thon íaushal,
3SG-NOM.NEG AUX.PRES.PRF 1SG-INSTR.NEG nothing-ACC.NEG for.a.long.time-ADV very-AdADV hear.tell
Sie hat so lange nichts von mir vernommen,
It has heard nothing from me for so long

Söb la, gü sí lö höisfaikh sho, tha'u hauhauth!
3SG-NOM AUX.PRES, CONJ 1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF die-DISC PTCL, very-ADV believe-SPEC
Sie mag wohl glauben, ich sei gestorben!
that it may very well believe that I am dead!

Ve hereçkegs la fík téjü brin,
DEF.NEG that-NOM.NEG AUX.PRES 1SG-DAT.NEG in.the.least-ADV be.important
Es ist mir auch gar nichts daran gelegen,
It is of no consequence to me

Söb la sít se sfaikhölöthseb sfen gérü höihaöbef;
3SG-NOM AUX.PRES 1SG-ACC INDEF die.PRESPRF.PTPL.one-POST as whether regard-DISC
Ob sie mich für gestorben hält,
Whether it thinks me dead;

Fí la helkeveçö hé ba ngkföl kalokh,
1SG-NOM.NEG AUX.PRES thus even-ADV PTCL deny be.able
Ich kann auch gar nichts sagen dagegen,
I cannot deny it,

Sí lö auvaç chö öbelöbsöv flaní hemensfaikh.
1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF because DEF world-LOC indeed away.die-CONCL
Denn wirklich bin ich gestorben der Welt.
for I really am dead to the world.

Sí lö chí öbelöbölekelsív mensfaikh,
1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF DEF world.tumult-LOC away.die
Ich bin gestorben dem Weltgetümmel,
I am dead to the world’s tumult,

La orha sa dínsav évashanav shuvaz!
AUX.PRES and INDEF place-LOC quiet-LOC rest
Und ruh’ in einem stillen Gebiet!
And I rest in a quiet realm!

Sí la hasíra'u che ögíuthsev dvüzçethev pez,
1SG-NOM AUX.PRES alone-ADV DEF paradise-LOC own-LOC live
Ich leb’ allein in meinem Himmel,
I live alone in my heaven,

Chí shesölsív dvüzçelív, che shírethsev dvüzçethev pez.
DEF love-LOC own-LOC, DEF song-LOC own-LOC live
In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied!
In my love and in my song!

[HoskhMatriarch]

Glosses, please. I can tell there are for some reason no conjunctions, but I can't tell what all the hyphens and apostrophes are for...

I'm going to try my best at this, but remember a few things:

1. I'm purposefully ignoring the glossing rule about morphemes.
This is because each morpheme in Etihus represents a family of related concepts which grants them multiple, flexible meanings. Additionally, the morphemes (all of which are free morphemes) can be contracted together into compound words and ligatures (which are spoken by using only pieces of the morphemes to create the word). Etihus is an oligosynthetic language (only about 60 morphemes), so very likely there aren't going to be any more additions.

So what you are seeing in English is the closest translated approximation (even in the gloss). Because for the most part, not a single morpheme in Etihus (and several words) corresponds to any word in English.


2a. Zero copula. In every tense. (There is no 'to be' in Etihus, present tense or otherwise.)
2b. In the translation, there's only 1 verb. (shm)
I don't know if that makes any massive difference (I imagine it could), but just fyi.


3. A single word is not always going to mean exactly the same thing.
In Etihus, the same word will change it's part of speech and usage (and sometimes meaning) based on where it is placed. A sentence in Etihus is made up of a string of abstract thoughts, as opposed to an "event", unless otherwise noted. The presence of a verb redirects the flow of information differently and signals the sentence in question is an event with an action.

"Semaphonemes" as I call them in Etihus are morphemes that correspond to an entire small family of an abstract concept. They are the most basic units to the language meaning there are technically no letters. I know this doesn't mean much to glossing but just pointing it out in case it matters. For example, may as a semaphoneme is represented by a single glyph, being (in the conlang), a grapheme, and a free morpheme to indicate something akin to "circular, same point, redundant". There is no English word that can simply lay out that as a morpheme (or any of the morphemes for that matter).

So something like: "Mayee'ait-ihff" consists of 6 morphemes between two words, each morpheme which correspond to 6 families of abstract concepts with multiple meanings in English.


4. I do not think I presently have a full grasp of how glossing works.
So be aware there might be a few errors.

---

The usual usage difference between the apostrophe (') and the hyphen (-) is that the apostrophe divides the collection of two words/morphemes together to create a compound word. The hyphen divides two words together to form a phrase. In both cases the second word/morpheme is still always modifying the previous. This relationship is the same and both insinuate the use of a short pause (or in the apostrophe's case, a glottal stop?). The apostrophe is written as a symbol in the orthography while the hyphen is "represented" as a short space. Completely separate words are divided by a longer space.

So for the attempted glossing, I am ignoring the apostrophe and simply treating them as a single word. Otherwise, the gloss of a single line of text could require an entire paragraph of glossing.

---

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

OK, thanks. So ' is an interfix, like in many compounds in Germanic languages? You might want to add that to your list of morphemes then...

[Sew'Kyetuh]

OK, thanks. So ' is an interfix, like in many compounds in Germanic languages? You might want to add that to your list of morphemes then...

Ooooh... I suppose it is. Thanks! Would/Could you gloss an interfix as CONN? I went back to the list of glossing terms and didn't find interfix in there.

Sí lö chö öbelöbsöv menthmaz,
1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF DEF world-LOC away.get.lost
Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen,
I am lost to the world

Söböv sí lö sí mnwölsít ezgaulít aukhbrelü hefpökh;
3SG-LOC 1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF INDEF time-ACC much-ACC nevertheless-ADV waste-CONCL
Mit der ich sonst viele Zeit verdorben,
with which I used to waste so much time,

Fökh lö fín shahövepsat chönü thon íaushal,
3SG-NOM.NEG AUX.PRES.PRF 1SG-INSTR.NEG nothing-ACC.NEG for.a.long.time-ADV very-AdADV hear.tell
Sie hat so lange nichts von mir vernommen,
It has heard nothing from me for so long

Söb la, gü sí lö höisfaikh sho, tha'u hauhauth!
3SG-NOM AUX.PRES, CONJ 1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF die-DISC PTCL, very-ADV believe-SPEC
Sie mag wohl glauben, ich sei gestorben!
that it may very well believe that I am dead!

Ve hereçkegs la fík téjü brin,
DEF.NEG that-NOM.NEG AUX.PRES 1SG-DAT.NEG in.the.least-ADV be.important
Es ist mir auch gar nichts daran gelegen,
It is of no consequence to me

Söb la sít se sfaikhölöthseb sfen gérü höihaöbef;
3SG-NOM AUX.PRES 1SG-ACC INDEF die.PRESPRF.PTPL.one-POST as whether regard-DISC
Ob sie mich für gestorben hält,
Whether it thinks me dead;

Fí la helkeveçö hé ba ngkföl kalokh,
1SG-NOM.NEG AUX.PRES thus even-ADV PTCL deny be.able
Ich kann auch gar nichts sagen dagegen,
I cannot deny it,

Sí lö auvaç chö öbelöbsöv flaní hemensfaikh.
1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF because DEF world-LOC indeed away.die-CONCL
Denn wirklich bin ich gestorben der Welt.
for I really am dead to the world.

Sí lö chí öbelöbölekelsív mensfaikh,
1SG-NOM AUX.PRESPRF DEF world.tumult-LOC away.die
Ich bin gestorben dem Weltgetümmel,
I am dead to the world’s tumult,

La orha sa dínsav évashanav shuvaz!
AUX.PRES and INDEF place-LOC quiet-LOC rest
Und ruh’ in einem stillen Gebiet!
And I rest in a quiet realm!

Sí la hasíra'u che ögíuthsev dvüzçethev pez,
1SG-NOM AUX.PRES alone-ADV DEF paradise-LOC own-LOC live
Ich leb’ allein in meinem Himmel,
I live alone in my heaven,

Chí shesölsív dvüzçelív, che shírethsev dvüzçethev pez.
DEF love-LOC own-LOC, DEF song-LOC own-LOC live
In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied!
In my love and in my song!

Are the periods in-between words used to separate morphemes/lexemes/word units within a compound word?

[cntrational]

You gloss an interfix by placing it between <> and putting it after the other glosses.

PREFIX-gloss-SUFFIX<INFIX>

[Sew'Kyetuh]

For a test of the first paragraph then, is this better?

Spoiler:

[cntrational]

There's no need to use stuff like 'DEF=The'. For one, you can just use etiher "the" or "DEF". If you must indicate both, use a semicolon the;DEF, and don't capitalize "the".

= indicates a clitic in the glossing rules, a word that is grammatically independent but phonologically bound to the previous word.

[HoskhMatriarch]

I read that an interfix is RFX, so that's how I gloss them when I use them. However, if it has any specific grammatical information, you can also gloss it as that, like in a grammar of Yimas that glosses the sequential interfix in a root serialization construction as SEQ.

[Sew'Kyetuh]

There's no need to use stuff like 'DEF=The'. For one, you can just use etiher "the" or "DEF". If you must indicate both, use a semicolon the;DEF, and don't capitalize "the".

= indicates a clitic in the glossing rules, a word that is grammatically independent but phonologically bound to the previous word.

Oh ok that helps (and makes more sense).

I read that an interfix is RFX, so that's how I gloss them when I use them. However, if it has any specific grammatical information, you can also gloss it as that, like in a grammar of Yimas that glosses the sequential interfix in a root serialization construction as SEQ.

I think I prefer inserting RFX in-between my morpheme clusters for a word rather than trying to list it at the end because in Etihus it is just a mark of punctuation (but sounded as a glottal stop I think). But if RFX is incorrect then obviously I'm not going to want to go that route.

I understand (now) that a period is usually what is put in place in a gloss to separate where I'm essentially trying to put apostrophes in the romanization of Etihus. So would I put a period before RFX, on either side, or simply exclude the periods altogether as it would be understood?

Or were you trying to say that RFX is what is used for the hyphen?

[Lao Kou]

Sí Lö Chö Öbelöbsöv Menthmaz

Are the periods in-between words used to separate morphemes/lexemes/word units within a compound word?

I'm probably one of the last people you should be getting glossing tips from. I use a period to indicate that the units linked thereby are to be considered together as a larger "word". As you noted, in the case of some compound words, like "öbelöbölekels" (glossed as "world.tumult"), it shows the elements of the compound. In the case of single Géarthnuns words which translate into English as more than one word ("brin" - be important; "kalokh" - be able (glossed as "be.important" and "be.able")), no morphological break-down is intended. The hinkiest example here is "sfaikhölöths", glossed as "die.PRESPRF.PTPL.one" (it's the present perfect participle of "die", "one" is meant to indicate that it's been substantived into a noun). All of that is meant more for people playing at home; I can imagine once the Géarthnuns thread properly addresses participles and how to substantize adjectives, I'll be less inclined to such rigamarole and just gloss it as "dead.one". The point being that without the period to glue items together, you'd end up with more discrete units in the gloss than words in the original, which could potentially be confusing. That said, I don't think I use hyphens or periods particularly consistently, and am driven more by a Lao Kou sense of what looks more or less icky-poo than adherence to Leipzig. I would look elsewhere for more standard, by-the-book Leipzig usage.

[HoskhMatriarch]

Sí Lö Chö Öbelöbsöv Menthmaz

Are the periods in-between words used to separate morphemes/lexemes/word units within a compound word?

I'm probably one of the last people you should be getting glossing tips from. I use a period to indicate that the units linked thereby are to be considered together as a larger "word". As you noted, in the case of some compound words, like "öbelöbölekels" (glossed as "world.tumult"), it shows the elements of the compound. In the case of single Géarthnuns words which translate into English as more than one word ("brin" - be important; "kalokh" - be able (glossed as "be.important" and "be.able")), no morphological break-down is intended. The hinkiest example here is "sfaikhölöths", glossed as "die.PRESPRF.PTPL.one" (it's the present perfect participle of "die", "one" is meant to indicate that it's been substantived into a noun). All of that is meant more for people playing at home; I can imagine once the Géarthnuns thread properly addresses participles and how to substantize adjectives, I'll be less inclined to such rigamarole and just gloss it as "dead.one". The point being that without the period to glue items together, you'd end up with more discrete units in the gloss than words in the original, which could potentially be confusing. That said, I don't think I use hyphens or periods particularly consistently, and am driven more by a Lao Kou sense of what looks more or less icky-poo than adherence to Leipzig. I would look elsewhere for more standard, by-the-book Leipzig usage.

In normal Leipzig glossing, periods are for when something can't be broken down, either due to a morpheme encoding more than one meaning, or due to words not translating exactly the same in the different languages. (I think I've also seen it for when people just don't want to break everything down too though).

RFX usage:
Schwanengesang
schwan-en-gesang
swan-RFX-song
"swan song"

[Thrice Xandvii]

Periods vs. Hyphens vs. Underscores as I understand them:

We'll be using this sentence as our example in Spanish and English

Code: Select all

Voy           a   vender  mi-      s  perro-s.
to_go.PRS.1sg PRP to_sell 1sg.POSS-PL dog-  PL 
Voy a vender mis perros.
I'm going to sell my dogs.

One uses a period to indicate that one morpheme has multiple parts within it and is not seperable with hyphens, and hyphens are used to indicate individual morphemes. The underscore is sometimes used instead of a period to indicate that one morpheme in one language means two or more words in another language.

[cntrational]

as an aside

‹dogs› (written)
"dogs" (spoken)
/dɔgz/ (phonemic)
[d̠ɔˑgz] (phonetic)
//dogs// (morphophonemic)

(all in my dialect, morphophonemic may use //s// or //z//)

keep those in mind.

Informally, I've recently picked up using single quotes for written quotations and double quotes for spoken quotations. But that's not a linguist thing, it's a hacker jargon thing that I picked up from the book Concrete Mathematics, and I'd use that for phrases rather than single words.

[Thrice Xandvii]

[d̠ɔˑgz]

As a further aside... Why the heck isn't it spelt <dawgz> to coincide with other words with /ɔ/ that use 'aw' for it?! Or at least <dawgs>!

[cntrational]

That's because it's /dɒgz/, originally, which is written with ‹o›. British and NZ-Australian still use it, but other dialects, such as North American, Asian, and Indian, have merged it into /ɔ/.

[Lao Kou]

[d̠ɔˑgz]

As a further aside... Why the heck isn't it spelt <dawgz> to coincide with other words with /ɔ/ that use 'aw' for it?! Or at least <dawgs>!

Is it not thus in expressions like, "Whaddup, dawg?" I presume it would still just take the orthographic -s plural. I don't know if it's still the rage in the US, but for a while there, there was a trend to pluralize certain things with -z to look edgy and garner attention in, at least, adspeak. Which would get you to <dawgz> -- very urban... very edgy.