Quick Diachronics Challenge

[sketch]

...
Just as a quick note, for this thread specifically, it is played one round at a time. So one person presents a group of words, everyone tries to guess the proto-word, until the original poster (OP) declares a winner
...

Ohh, my bad. As you've noticed, I'm new here. I guess I should've read this a little more carefully first.

[sangi39]

...
Just as a quick note, for this thread specifically, it is played one round at a time. So one person presents a group of words, everyone tries to guess the proto-word, until the original poster (OP) declares a winner
...

Ohh, my bad. As you've noticed, I'm new here. I guess I should've read this a little more carefully first.

In all fairness, and completely understand where you were coming from, I don't think there's, like, one set of rules in thus thread, or other similar threads. It's just sort of convention, I guess

Again, though, welcome to the Board!

[Creyeditor]

Sorry for the delay, but here is the solution. The protoform was *kidekide. The grouping was [[[cilecira cideceda] sidiside] [[kezehize kiaxia] kiraikirai]]. With intermediate forms, the whole thing looks something like this.

Code: Select all

*kidekide
-- cidecide
--- cidecida
---- cilecira (Elvish) 
---- cideceda (Nymphish) 
--- cidicide
---- sidiside (Fairy-ish) 
-- kidekide
--- kizexize
---- kezexize
----- kezehize (Dwarfish)
---- kiexie 
----- kiaxia (Orcish)
--- kideikidei
---- kireikirei 
----- kiraikirai (Goblinish) 

So, all in all, Sangi was closest and I declare him the winner.

[sangi39]

Sorry for the delay, but here is the solution. The protoform was *kidekide. The grouping was [[[cilecira cideceda] sidiside] [[kezehize kiaxia] kiraikirai]]. With intermediate forms, the whole thing looks something like this.

Code: Select all

*kidekide
-- cidecide
--- cidecida
---- cilecira (Elvish) 
---- cideceda (Nymphish) 
--- cidicide
---- sidiside (Fairy-ish) 
-- kidekide
--- kizexize
---- kezexize
----- kezehize (Dwarfish)
---- kiexie 
----- kiaxia (Orcish)
--- kideikidei
---- kireikirei 
----- kiraikirai (Goblinish) 

So, all in all, Sangi was closest and I declare him the winner.

So close! I had considered that the second and fourth vowels were /e/ with diphthongisation in Goblinish, but settled on /ai/ with monophthongisation in everything but Goblinish

[sangi39]

Okay, so, threw this together fairly quickly:

1) uːit
2) 'õgda
3) 'ŋũggeːt
4) 'ʔuŋŋaiθ
5) pý'ⁿgás
6) pý'gî
7) 'pýːcìʔ
8) 'pýətɕì
9) 'pʰutɕijja
10) pʰo'ɕiʁ
11) 'puʰcçil
12) 'puːssəl
13) 'funkt
14) 'ɸunks
15) 'huontta
16) 'waːttə

acute accents, grave accents, and circumflexes mark high, low, and rising-falling tones, respectively

[Creyeditor]

Ooh, tones. So let's try a tonal reconstruction then. (S=stressed, u=unstressed, H=high, L=low, HL=falling)

1)U
2)S.U
3)S.U:
4)S.U
5)H.H
6)UH.SHL
7)H:.L
8)SH.UL
9)S.U
10)U.S
11)S.U
12)S:.U
13)S
14)S
15)S.U
16)S:.U

So, I guess 5,6,7 form a group, assuming that tonogenisis only happened once and there was no stress-o-genesis. 8 is probably an outlier, forming the next higher grouping as it's kind of a missing link. Proto -5,6,7,8 was probably SH:.UL similar to 8. Proto-5,6,7 was then probably H:.L and with different kinds of spreading in 5 and 6.
If length is attributed to proto-all, then proto-all was probably S:.U. I thought of this because length keeps popping up in different forms. We could then have a split between length retaining 12,16 and the length-losing rest. 5,6,7,8 would go with the former, maybe 13 and 14 also? 1 and 10 would then form their own groups because they lost or shifted stress. I might put in more effort later.

[ɶʙ ɞʛ]

My first guess, sorry for the delay:

1) uːit
2) 'õgda
3) 'ŋũggeːt
4) 'ʔuŋŋaiθ
5) pý'ⁿgás
< ˈpuŋdait

6) pý'gî
7) 'pýːcìʔ
8) 'pýətɕì
< ˈpýkīʔ

9) 'pʰutɕijja
10) pʰo'ɕiʁ
11) 'puʰcçil
12) 'puːssəl
< ˈpuhcil

13) 'funkt (typo for /ŋ/ or is there no assimilation?)
14) 'ɸunks (typo for /ŋ/ or is there no assimilation?)
15) 'huontta
16) 'waːttə
< ˈɸunkta

ˈpuhcil
ˈpýkīʔ
< ˈpuhkid

ˈpuŋdait
ˈɸunkta
< ˈpuŋ(k)tet

ˈpuhkid
ˈpuŋ(k)tet
< ˈpuhkted

[sangi39]

I'll wait to see if another person or two have a guess, but ɶʙ ɞʛ is right that the nasal in 13 and 14 should be /ŋ/

[zyma]

I'll wait to see if another person or two have a guess, but ɶʙ ɞʛ is right that the nasal in 13 and 14 should be /ŋ/

For whatever it's worth, I'm hoping to be able to give it a go, but I haven't had a whole lot of free time since the current challenge was first posted.

[zyma]

Initial attempt:

Spoiler:

1) uːit
2) 'õgda
< 1-2) [ˈũgita]

3) 'ŋũggeːt
4) 'ʔuŋŋaiθ
< 3-4) [ˈʔũŋgai̯t]

5) pý'ⁿgás
6) pý'gî
< 5-6) [pýˈᵑgés]

7) 'pýːcìʔ
8) 'pýətɕì
< 7-8) [ˈpýə̯cìʔ]

9) 'pʰutɕijja
10) pʰo'ɕiʁ
< 9-10) [ˈpʰut͡ɕiːʁ]

11) 'puʰcçil
12) 'puːssəl
< 11-12) [ˈpuʰc͡çel]

13) 'funkt
14) 'ɸunks
< 13-14) [ˈɸuŋkt]

15) 'huontta
16) 'waːttə
< 15-16) [ˈhua̯ntta]

---

1-2) [ˈũgita]
3-4) [ˈʔũŋgai̯t]
< 1-4) [ˈũŋgiːta]

5-6) [pýˈᵑgés]
7-8) [ˈpýə̯cìʔ]
< 5-8) [ˈpýə́ᵑgīt]

9-10) [ˈpʰut͡ɕiːʁ]
11-12) [ˈpuʰc͡çel]
< 9-12) [ˈpʰucciːr]

13-14) [ˈɸuŋkt]
15-16) [ˈhua̯ntta]
< 13-16) [ˈɸua̯ŋkta]

---

---

1-4) [ˈũŋgiːta]
5-8) [ˈpýə́ᵑgīt]
< 1-8) [ˈpuə̯ŋgiːta]

9-12) [ˈpʰucciːr]
13-16) [ˈɸua̯ŋkta]
< 9-16) [ˈpʰua̯ŋkiːda]

---

---

---

1-8) [ˈpuə̯ŋgiːta]
9-16) [ˈpʰua̯ŋkiːda]
< 1-16) [ˈpua̯ŋkiːta]

[sangi39]

Spoiler:

Ooh, tones. So let's try a tonal reconstruction then. (S=stressed, u=unstressed, H=high, L=low, HL=falling)

1)U
2)S.U
3)S.U:
4)S.U
5)H.H
6)UH.SHL
7)H:.L
8)SH.UL
9)S.U
10)U.S
11)S.U
12)S:.U
13)S
14)S
15)S.U
16)S:.U

So, I guess 5,6,7 form a group, assuming that tonogenisis only happened once and there was no stress-o-genesis. 8 is probably an outlier, forming the next higher grouping as it's kind of a missing link. Proto -5,6,7,8 was probably SH:.UL similar to 8. Proto-5,6,7 was then probably H:.L and with different kinds of spreading in 5 and 6.
If length is attributed to proto-all, then proto-all was probably S:.U. I thought of this because length keeps popping up in different forms. We could then have a split between length retaining 12,16 and the length-losing rest. 5,6,7,8 would go with the former, maybe 13 and 14 also? 1 and 10 would then form their own groups because they lost or shifted stress. I might put in more effort later.

Okay, so , you've got that 5, 6, 7, and 8 form a group, but the internal grouping is off (you've got the stress pattern for the proto-word right, but not the length of the syllable). Tonogenesis sort of occurred once, in that tone did occur in proto-5,6,7,8, but the progression to tone on all syllables didn't occur in proto-5,6,7,8

Similarly, you've got the stress pattern for proto-all right, but not the vowel length (and not the right number of syllables), and 1 to 10 don't form a group either

[sangi39]

Spoiler:

My first guess, sorry for the delay:

1) uːit
2) 'õgda
3) 'ŋũggeːt
4) 'ʔuŋŋaiθ
5) pý'ⁿgás
< ˈpuŋdait

6) pý'gî
7) 'pýːcìʔ
8) 'pýətɕì
< ˈpýkīʔ

9) 'pʰutɕijja
10) pʰo'ɕiʁ
11) 'puʰcçil
12) 'puːssəl
< ˈpuhcil

13) 'funkt (typo for /ŋ/ or is there no assimilation?)
14) 'ɸunks (typo for /ŋ/ or is there no assimilation?)
15) 'huontta
16) 'waːttə
< ˈɸunkta

ˈpuhcil
ˈpýkīʔ
< ˈpuhkid

ˈpuŋdait
ˈɸunkta
< ˈpuŋ(k)tet

ˈpuhkid
ˈpuŋ(k)tet
< ˈpuhkted

Your 1-to-8 grouping is right, but the internal group for that is off. Your other first level groups are fine, but your second level groupings (1-to-5 + 13-to-16 vs. 6-to-12) are incorrect, which I think might have thrown off reconstructions of more ancestral forms

*ˈɸunkta for proto-13-to-16 is basically spot on. After that I think the main problem with your other groupings is that you've taken what are innovations within the group and assumed they're the ancestral trait, especially in 9-to-12, for example (although, as mentioned, this could have come about from incorrect groupings leading you in the wrong direction)

[sangi39]

Spoiler:

Initial attempt:

Spoiler:

1) uːit
2) 'õgda
< 1-2) [ˈũgita]

3) 'ŋũggeːt
4) 'ʔuŋŋaiθ
< 3-4) [ˈʔũŋgai̯t]

5) pý'ⁿgás
6) pý'gî
< 5-6) [pýˈᵑgés]

7) 'pýːcìʔ
8) 'pýətɕì
< 7-8) [ˈpýə̯cìʔ]

9) 'pʰutɕijja
10) pʰo'ɕiʁ
< 9-10) [ˈpʰut͡ɕiːʁ]

11) 'puʰcçil
12) 'puːssəl
< 11-12) [ˈpuʰc͡çel]

13) 'funkt
14) 'ɸunks
< 13-14) [ˈɸuŋkt]

15) 'huontta
16) 'waːttə
< 15-16) [ˈhua̯ntta]

---

1-2) [ˈũgita]
3-4) [ˈʔũŋgai̯t]
< 1-4) [ˈũŋgiːta]

5-6) [pýˈᵑgés]
7-8) [ˈpýə̯cìʔ]
< 5-8) [ˈpýə́ᵑgīt]

9-10) [ˈpʰut͡ɕiːʁ]
11-12) [ˈpuʰc͡çel]
< 9-12) [ˈpʰucciːr]

13-14) [ˈɸuŋkt]
15-16) [ˈhua̯ntta]
< 13-16) [ˈɸua̯ŋkta]

---

---

1-4) [ˈũŋgiːta]
5-8) [ˈpýə́ᵑgīt]
< 1-8) [ˈpuə̯ŋgiːta]

9-12) [ˈpʰucciːr]
13-16) [ˈɸua̯ŋkta]
< 9-16) [ˈpʰua̯ŋkiːda]

---

---

---

1-8) [ˈpuə̯ŋgiːta]
9-16) [ˈpʰua̯ŋkiːda]
< 1-16) [ˈpua̯ŋkiːta]

As a first attempt, this is pretty good. Your groupings are spot on at every level

Proto-1/2 - Spot on
Proto-3/4 - Pretty close - Basically just don't need the nasal vowel, and the second syllable's nucleus is wrong
Proto-5/6 - Spot on
Proto-7/8 - Very close - The nucleus of the first syllable is wrong
Proto-9/10 - Close - Wrong number of syllables, and the vowel length of the second syllable is wrong
Proto-11/12 - Very close - One feature doesn't belong there
Proto-13/14 - Spot on
Proto-15/16 - Spot on

Proto-1-4 - Very close - One syllable has the wrong length
Proto-5-8 - Close - The nucleus of the first syllable is wrong, and tone didn't appear on every syllable at this stage
Proto-9-12 - A bit further off that your other guesses so far - One syllable has the wrong length, and the central consonants are missing an element (this one, to be fair, might be tricky)
Proto-13-16 - Very close - The nucleus of the first syllable is wrong

Proto-1-8 - Very close - One syllable has the wrong nucleus. One syllable has the wrong vowel length
Proto-9-16 - Close - One syllable has the wrong nucleus. One syllable has the wrong vowel length. One of the consonants is wrong

Proto-1-16 - Very Close - One syllable has the wrong nucleus. One syllable has the wrong vowel length

[Creyeditor]

This really is a fun challenge. I recently tried to come up with my second guess but then I noticed it's too much for a 15-minute tram ride Sorry about that.

[sangi39]

This really is a fun challenge. I recently tried to come up with my second guess but then I noticed it's too much for a 15-minute tram ride Sorry about that.

Haha, I completely get that I was trying to come up with replies betweem work and, well, more work

[zyma]

Second attempt:

Spoiler:

As a first attempt, this is pretty good. Your groupings are spot on at every level

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.

---

Proto-1/2 - Spot on

1) uːit 
2) 'õgda 
< 1-2) [ˈũgita]

---

Proto-3/4 - Pretty close - Basically just don't need the nasal vowel, and the second syllable's nucleus is wrong

Ah, I went back and forth with myself over whether or not the stressed vowel should be nasalized. I'm not too sure about the nucleus of the second syllable, though. I've admittedly based that part of my guess this time around more on 1-2 than 3 and 4. 

3) 'ŋũggeːt 
4) 'ʔuŋŋaiθ 
< 3-4) [ˈʔuŋgit]

---

Proto-5/6 - Spot on

5) pý'ⁿgás 
6) pý'gî 
< 5-6) [pýˈᵑgés]

---

Proto-7/8 - Very close - The nucleus of the first syllable is wrong

I can't say I'm particularly confident about this, but let's try [-ýː-] from 7 instead of [-ýə̯-] from 8 this time.

7) 'pýːcìʔ 
8) 'pýətɕì 
< 7-8) [ˈpýːcìʔ]

---

Proto-9/10 - Close - Wrong number of syllables, and the vowel length of the second syllable is wrong

Ah, got it! I wasn't sure about the number of syllables. 

9) 'pʰutɕijja 
10) pʰo'ɕiʁ 
< 9-10) [ˈpʰut͡ɕiʁa]

---

Proto-11/12 - Very close - One feature doesn't belong there

Hmm… based on the word "feature", I'll try getting rid of the preaspiration. 

11) 'puʰcçil 
12) 'puːssəl 
< 11-12) [ˈpuc͡çel]

---

Proto-13/14 - Spot on

13) 'funkt 
14) 'ɸunks 
< 13-14) [ˈɸuŋkt]

---

Proto-15/16 - Spot on

15) 'huontta 
16) 'waːttə 
< 15-16) [ˈhua̯ntta] 

---

---

Proto-1-4 - Very close - One syllable has the wrong length

I assume the second syllable's vowel is supposed to be short, though I'm not quite 100% sure.

1-2) [ˈũgita] 
3-4) [ˈʔuŋgit]
< 1-4) [ˈũŋgita] 

---

Proto-5-8 - Close - The nucleus of the first syllable is wrong, and tone didn't appear on every syllable at this stage

Ah, thanks for letting me know about the tone. I'm not entirely sure about the nucleus of the first syllable, but let's try this. 

5-6) [pýˈᵑgés] 
7-8) [ˈpýːcìʔ]
< 5-8) [ˈpýᵑgit] 

---

Proto-9-12 - A bit further off that your other guesses so far - One syllable has the wrong length, and the central consonants are missing an element (this one, to be fair, might be tricky)

Tricky indeed! Knowing that there's some "element" missing from the medial consonants is making me second-guess my decision to ditch preaspiration for 11-12. Does affrication count as an "element"? I suppose I'll find out.

9-10) [ˈpʰut͡ɕiʁa]
11-12) [ˈpuc͡çel]
< 9-12) [ˈpʰucc͡çir]

---

Proto-13-16 - Very close - The nucleus of the first syllable is wrong

Hmm… I'll try going with just [-u-] this time.

13-14) [ˈɸuŋkt] 
15-16) [ˈhua̯ntta] 
< 13-16) [ˈɸuŋkta] 

---

---

---

Proto-1-8 - Very close - One syllable has the wrong nucleus. One syllable has the wrong vowel length

I feel like I have a decent idea of what to try next, though I could be wrong. 

1-4) [ˈũŋgita] 
5-8) [ˈpýᵑgit]
< 1-8) [ˈpuŋgita] 

---

Proto-9-16 - Close - One syllable has the wrong nucleus. One syllable has the wrong vowel length. One of the consonants is wrong

My thoughts on 1-8 above also apply here. Let's see how this turns out.

9-12) [ˈpʰucc͡çir]
13-16) [ˈɸuŋkta]
< 9-16) [ˈpʰuŋkita] 

---

---

---

---

Proto-1-16 - Very Close - One syllable has the wrong nucleus. One syllable has the wrong vowel length

Thanks again for all of your feedback!

1-8) [ˈpuŋgita]
9-16) [ˈpʰuŋkita]  
< 1-16) [ˈpuŋkita]

[ɶʙ ɞʛ]

Second guess:

Spoiler:

1) uːit
2) 'õgda
< ˈũgita

3) 'ŋũggeːt
4) 'ʔuŋŋaiθ
< ˈʔuŋgait

5) pý'ⁿgás
6) pý'gî
< pýˈŋ͡gés

7) 'pýːcìʔ
8) 'pýətɕì
< ˈpý:cìʔ

9) 'pʰutɕijja
10) pʰo'ɕiʁ
11) 'puʰcçil
12) 'puːssəl
< ˈpuccil

13) 'fuŋkt
14) 'ɸuŋks
< ˈɸuŋkt

15) 'huontta
16) 'waːttə
< ˈhwantta

1)-4)
ˈũgita
ˈʔuŋgait
< ˈuŋgi:ta

5)-8)
pýˈŋ͡gés
ˈpý:cìʔ
< ˈpýŋkīt

9)-12)
ˈpuccil

13)-16)
ˈɸuŋkt
ˈhwantta
< ˈɸuə̯ŋkta < ˈɸu:ŋkta

ˈuŋgi:ta
ˈpýŋkīt
ˈpuccil
ˈɸu:ŋkta
<ˈpuŋkita

[sangi39]

So, I think I'm going to have to give this one to shimobaatar, but once second guesses came in, it was super close!

Code: Select all

*'punkita > 'pungita  > 'ʔungita   >  'ũgita     > 'uːɣita   > uːit
                                                 > 'õgeta    > 'õgda
                                   >'ʔungiːtə
                                    >'ʔungeːt    > 'ŋũgːeːt  
                                                 > 'ʔuŋːaiθ
                      > 'pyⁿgit    > 'pýⁿgés     > 'pýⁿgás   > pý'ⁿgás
                                                 > 'pýgî     > pý'gî
                                   > 'pỹgìʔ      > 'pýːcìʔ
                                                 > 'pýətɕì
          > 'pʰunkita > 'pʰuncida  > 'pʰuciða
                                    >'pʰuciɣa
                                     >'pʰuciʁa   > 'pʰutɕijja
                                                 > 'pʰuɕiʁ   > pʰo'ɕiʁ
                                   > 'pʰuccil(ə) > 'puʰcçil
                                                 > 'pussəl
                      > 'funk(ə)ta > 'funkt(ə)   > 'funkt
                                                 > 'ɸunks
                                   > 'huənkta    > 'huontta
                                                 > 'waːtta   > 'waːttə

[zyma]

Ah, my apologies! I thought I had already responded to this. I've been pretty busy these past few weeks, but I hope to have something for the next round of this game soon. Thank you, sangi39, for your work on the previous round!

[zyma]

Alright, sorry again for the wait. Ideally, I'd like to have spent more time putting this together, but I didn't want to delay things even more. Hopefully this will be neither too easy nor too hard.

NW [ˈwĩːru] - N [əi̯nˈdʉu̯] - NE [ˌʝiːnʊˈlwaː]
W [jãĩ̯ˈroə̯] - C [ˈhei̯ndoː] - E [ɟeˈɲ̊ɔu̯]
SW [døsˈnœːry] - S [ˈzɔstr̩bi] - SE [ˈʑot͡ɕɛːf]

C = central, E = eastern, N = northern, S = southern, W = western

This 3x3 arrangement is meant to serve as a very rough "map" of where these nine related languages are currently spoken, although any historical migrations that may have taken place within this area have not been indicated.

Please let me know if there's anything you'd like me to clarify!