The CBB

I'm back, this time with yet another Romlang that hopefully won't crash and burn (hopefully)

If you're probably wondering about the whole "Ibero-Romance" part, that's because I'm basically taking the Old Spanish language and changing it in ways which will basically be unrecognizable to modern Spanish, yet still feel familiar in some ways.

(P.S. I have yet to come up with a backstory though I'm tempted to have it be the language of a small island in the Mediterranean or somewhere in the Iberian Peninsula)
(P.S.S. I settled on "Carpetanian" after a pre-Roman people known as the Carpetani.

Table of Contents

1. Historic Sound Changes
2. Phonology
3. Orthography
4. Articles
5. Nouns
6. Numbers
7. Adjectives
8. Prepositions and Contractions
9. Verbs

So let's get started, starting with the language's sound changes and general phonology.

1) Sound Changes

Consonants
-Carpetanian's sibilant consonants virtually kept the same structure of Old Spanish /ts dz s z ʃ ʒ tʃ/, unlike modern Spanish, which merged them into /θ~s s x tʃ/. In subsequent changes, /dz/ and /z/ would merge into /z/ by 1600, while /ʃ ʒ tʃ/ would be pushed back to /ɕ ʑ tɕ/.
-Similar to Romanian (and unlike modern Spanish) the consonant clusters /tʲ dʲ sʲ lʲ rʲ/ (either before /i/ or /ʲɛ/) would be palatalized to /ts dz (later z) ɕ ʎ r̝~r̝̊ (later ʀ̝~ʀ̝̊)/
-Consonant clusters <cl pl fl> are palatalized to /kʲ (later tɕ), pʲ fʲ/
-Old Spanish /f/ would be fully preserved (as opposed to becoming /h/)
-Similar to the Oïl languages south of the Joret line, Carpetanian would palatalize initial c and g (before a) to /tʃ dʒ/ (later /tɕ dʑ/), but would keep Germanic v (similar to Norman and Picard)

• Lat. cattus "cat" > djatu (Sp. gato)
• Frnk. werra "war" > verrò (Sp. guerra)

-Old Spanish /b v/ would merge (as in modern Spanish), but to /ʋ/ (before r and intervocalically) and /w~u̯/ (before other consonants)

• Lat. fabulor "to speak" > favlar (Sp. hablar)
• Lat. capra "goat" > cjavrò (Sp. cabra)

-d and g is lenited to /ð x/ except after a pause, a nasal consonant or (in the case of <d>) a dental consonant.
-Later /ð/ is differentiated to /θ ð/ depending on context and the preceding vowel.
-l was velarized to /ɫ/, except word-finally and between certain clusters, where it goes further to /w/.
-As a result of this (plus the disappearance of final e), /ʎ/ changes to l.
-the s in most consonant clusters (i.e. <sp sc st>) disappears, lengthening the preceding vowel.
-Related to the above rule, final /s/ would also disappear, leading to the stressed vowel changing in a process similar to Germanic i-mutation.

• Lat. bonās matrēs "good mother" > vuänò mäðer (Sp. buenas madres)
• Lat. bonōs hominēs "good man" > vuänu ömver (Sp. buenos hombres)

-In some cases, final /s/ would simply change to /ʲ/, without going through the vowel mutation process
-By the 1700s, the guttural R would be introduced (thanks to French influence), changing /r ɾ r̝~r̻/ to /ʀ ʁ ʀ̝~ʀ̝̊/
-Greek digraphs <ch (r)rh ph th> are changed to <h rr f þ> to reflect phonology.

• Gr. χριστιανός "Christian" > Lat. christiānus > hrêtianu (Sp. cristiano; also note some influence from learned Latin, direct borrowing is hrêçanu)
• Gr. θρίαμβος "triumph" > Lat. triumphus > třiunfu (Sp. triunfo)
• Gr. μύρρα "myrrh" > Lat. myrrha > mirrò (Sp. mirra)
• Gr. θέατρον "theatre, cinema" > Lat. theātrum > þeatru (Sp. teatro)

Vowels
-The open vowels /ɛ ɔ/ likewise diphthongized just like in Old Spanish and modern Spanish, but to Carpetanian /ʲɛ ɔa/

• Lat. festa "feast" > fiêtò (Sp. fiesta)
• Lat. terra "land" > cèrrò (Sp. tierra)
• Lat. mortem "death" > mòart (Sp. muerte)
• Lat. focus "fire" > fòahu (Sp. fuego)

-Final vowels would change as well, in that...

• /e/ would disappear completely (as opposed to modern Spanish which kept it as part of compounds)
• /o/ would change to /u/
• /a/ would change to /ɔ/ (akin to Occitan)

-As a result of the disappearance of final /e/, an epithentic /ə/ would be inserted between consonants in some consonant clusters.

• Lat. mater "mother" > O.S. madre > maðer (Sp. madre)
• Lat. pater "father" > O.S. padre > paðer (Sp. padre)

-/a/ would later be pushed back to /ɑ/
-Vowel changes as a result of plural mutation:

• /ɑ/ > /æ/
• /e ɛ/ > /i/
• /o/ > /ø/ (later merged to /œ/)
• /ɔ/ > /œ/
• /u/ > /y/
• /ʲɛ/ > /i/
• /ɔa/ > /u̯æ/

-Initial /o ɔ u/ would have a prothetic <v> inserted

2) Phonology

Consonants
Stops = /p t d k g/
Nasals = /m n ɲ/
Fricatives = /f θ ð s z ɕ ʑ x/
Affricates = /ts tɕ dʑ/
Approximants = /ʋ w ʁ/
Trill = /ʀ ʀ̝~ʀ̻/
Lateral approximants = /ɫ ʎ/

Vowels
Close: /i y u/
Close-mid: /e o/
Mid: /ə/
Open-mid: /ɛ œ ɔ/
Near-open: /æ/
Open: /ɑ/

Very nice introduction! I don't know much about Ibero-Romance myself, being more concerned with Gallo-Romance, so I reckon I'll enjoy following this and finding out a bit more about it.
I especially like the combination of /ka ga > tɕ dʑ/ with /w > v/ (and of course I'm a sucker for both uvular r and eth )

To check I understand some of these sound changes right, is this accurate?
<verrò favlar fiêtò> /veʀɔ faɑʋɫɑʁ fjɛːtɔ/
(also, should čavro be čavrò?)
I do like the orthography, it's distinctive but not outlandish - looks like it fits quite well into the region.

I look forward to more!

It seems close to Occitano-Romance, so can I suggest putting it in East Huesca?

Jackk wrote: ↑21 Nov 2018 22:09 Very nice introduction! I don't know much about Ibero-Romance myself, being more concerned with Gallo-Romance, so I reckon I'll enjoy following this and finding out a bit more about it.
I especially like the combination of /ka ga > tɕ dʑ/ with /w > v/ (and of course I'm a sucker for both uvular r and eth )

To check I understand some of these sound changes right, is this accurate?
<verrò favlar fiêtò> /veʀɔ faɑʋɫɑʁ fjɛːtɔ/
(also, should čavro be čavrò?)
I do like the orthography, it's distinctive but not outlandish - looks like it fits quite well into the region.

I look forward to more!

1) I think pronunciation should be:

<verrò> /ˈʋeʀɔ/
<favlar> /fɑu̯ˈɫɑʁ/ (<v> also functions as a /w/ as well, not unlike Ukrainian)
<fiêtò> /ˈfjɛtɔ/ (circumflex also determines the historical presence of e, akin to French. I'll explain more when we get to orthography)

Also, thanks for pointing out the small mistake for čavrò. Fixed.

Shemtov wrote: ↑21 Nov 2018 23:20 It seems close to Occitano-Romance, so can I suggest putting it in East Huesca?

You know, that's not such a bad idea. In fact, it could be like Silvish and be the language of it's own little microstate.

3) Orthography

I. Basic Alphabet
Carpetanian utilizes the basic Latin alphabet, with several additional letters, plus a few used only for foreign loanwords

Aa (Bb) Cc Dd Ðð Ee Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj (Kk) Ll Mm Nn Oo Pp (Qq) Rr Řř Ss Tt Uu Vv (Ww) Xx (Yy) Zz Þþ

II. Names
Aa - a
Bb - be, ve largò
Cc - ce
Dd - de
Ðð - eð
Ee - e
Ff - ef
Gg - ge
Hh -acj
Ii - i
Jj - jot
Kk - ka
Ll - el
Mm - em
Nn - en
Oo - o
Pp - pe
Qq - cu
Rr - er
Řř - eř
Ss - es
Tt - te
Uu - u
Vv - ve, be cortò
Ww - dopei-ve
Xx - echis, xeix
Yy - i grièhò
Zz - zetò
Þþ - þorn

III. Diacritics and Digraphs
Carpetanian typically utilizes 6 diacritics:

• the acute accent or accentu ahudu <á é í ó ú>, marking stress in close <e o> and <a i u>
• the double acute accent or accentu dopei-ahudu <a̋ ő ű> marking stress in <ä ö ü>
• the grave accent or accentu grav <è ò>, marking open <e o>
• the circumflex or circonflexu <â ê î ô û>, marking stress in <è ò>, as well as the historical deletion of a letter, usually <s>.
• the diaeresis or tremò <ä ë ï ö ü>, marking "plural vowels" /æ œ y/, as well as indicating that the vowel is to be pronounced separately from the preceding vowel (though <ï ü> are mostly used for this purpose)
• the cedilla or cedilhò <ç> which is pronounced /ts/ before back vowels <a ä o ò ö u ü>

...and 7 digraphs:

• <cj> - represents /tɕ/
• <dj> - represents /dʑ/ before <e i>
• <lh> - represents /ʎ/
• <nh> - represents /ɲ/
• <rr> - represents /ʀ/ between vowels (contrasts with r /ʁ/ between vowels; otherwise in complementary distribution)
• <ch> - represents /k/ before <e i>
• <gh> - represents /g/ before <e i>

Sometimes, an interpunct or puntu-mezu (·) is sometimes used to distinguish <·ä ·ö ·ü> (when used to separate vowels) from <ä ö ü> when used as /æ œ y/, and can also distinguish <n·h> (as /n.x/) and <l·h> (as /l.x/) from <nh> (as /ɲ/) and <lh> (as /ʎ/)

IV. Sound-Letter Correspondence
Carpetanian orthography is fairly morphophonemic, with most letters having more than one reading, so these correspondences are merely trends.

/i y u/ = <i ü u>
/e o/ = <e o>
/ə/ = /e/
/ɛ œ ɔ/ = <è ö ò>
/æ/ = <ä>
/ɑ/ = <a>

/p t d k g/ = <p t d c~ch¹ g~gh¹>
/m n ɲ/ = <m n nh>
/f θ ð s z ɕ ʑ x/ = <f þ ð s z x j h>
/ts tɕ dʑ/ = <c~ç cj dj>
/ʋ w ʁ/ = <v v r~rr>
/ʀ ʀ̝~ʀ̝̊/ = <r~rr ř>
/ɫ ʎ/ = <l lh>

¹used before <e i>
²used before <a o u>
³in complimentary distribution (only contrasting between vowels)

V. Stress
Similar to Catalan orthography, the standard rules governing the presence of accents are based on word endings and the position of the stressed syllable. In particular, accents are expected for:

• Ultimate (oxytone) syllables ending in a syllabic vowel, a vowel + (historical) -⟨s⟩, or -⟨en⟩/⟨in⟩
• Penultimate (paraoxytone) syllables with any other ending
• Any antepenultimate (proparaoxytone) syllable

Generally, most monosyllabic words do not have a stress mark.

So any comments regarding the latest update?

4) Articles

4.1 Definite Articles

The two definite articles are u and ò (both stemming from Lat. ille), with the plural forms typically being ü and ö. For plural words that end in -s (typically words ending in a consonant), the plural forms are üs and ös. Exceptions to this rule are feminine nouns which begin with a stressed a (which use the masculine singular and feminine plural).

Another definite article that emerged from Old Spanish was uð (from Lat. illud), which often serves as a neuter definite article used to make abstract nouns from adjectives)

4.2 Indefinite Articles

Indefinite articles are vun and vunò, which become vün and vünò respectively in plural nouns

5) Nouns

Nouns are pretty straightforward in Carpetanian, having two genders (masculine and feminine) and two numbers (singular and plural).

5.1 Gender

In general, nouns typically can be grouped into several categories:

• People and animals - Masculine nouns often end in -u and -ur, while feminine ones end in -ò and -urò. Nouns that end in -istò* can be grouped into either gender.
  • u omver "the man" vs. ò muger "the woman"
  • u djatu "the (male) cat" vs. ò djatò "the (female) cat"
  • u senhur "the gentleman" vs. ò senhurò "the lady"
  • u pianistò "the pianist" vs. ò pianistò "the (female) pianist
• Things and Ideas - Generally, masculine words end in -u and -mò (typically of Greek origin), as well as words which historically end in -s in singular form, while feminine words end in -ò, -çón/-xón and -að. There are of course exceptions to the rule (i.e. ò manu "the hand")
  • u cjauçadu "the shoe" vs. ò pòartò "the door"
  • u cucjelhu "the knife" vs. ò fenêtrò "the window"
  • u problemò "the problem" vs. ò televixón "the television"
  • u sistemò "the system" vs. ò naçón "the nation"
  • u paï "the country" vs. ò socedað "the society"

*Another example of a learned Latin borrowing (native form would have been -îtò)

5.2 Number

Carpetanian, like its fellow Romance neighbors, utilizes two grammatical genders: singular and plural. Typically, plural nouns can be formed by the following ways:

• Vowel i-mutation - Nouns that end in an unstressed vowel will typically have the stressed vowel changed to a "plural vowel" (mainly due to a process very similar to Germanic i-mutation). Nouns that end in -er that historically was the result of the deletion of final /e/ also undergoes this treatment.
  • u omver "the man" > ü ömver "the men"
  • ò cèrrò " the land" > ö cirrò " the lands"
  • u djatu "the cat" > ü djätu "the cats"
  • u cjauçadu "the shoe" > ü cjauçädu "the shoes"
  • u paðer "the father" > ü päðer "the fathers"
  • ò maðer "the mother" > ö mäðer "the mothers"
• Addition of -is - Nouns that end in a consonant or stressed vowel will typically add -is at the end of the word, often changing the spelling for words that end in <c ç g>. For nouns that end in a stressed vowel, this has the effect of mutating that vowel (similar to the first group) or even changing the stress.
  
  Note that <i> when pronounced as /j/ is generally treated as a consonant.
  • ò muger "the woman" > ös mugeris "the women"
  • ò naçón "the nation" > ös naçonis "the nations"
  • u la̋pi "the pencil" > üs läpís "the pencils"
  • u pie "the foot" > üs pis "the feet"
  • u rei "the king" > üs reis "the kings"
  • u paï "the country" > üs païs "the countries"

5.3 Suffixes

Suffixes pretty much work the same way in Carpetanian as in Spanish. They can be best described into four categories:

• diminiutives (-itu/-itò, -ilhu/ilhò)
• terms of endearment (-òalu/-òalò)
• augmentatives (-ot/-otò, -ón/-onò)
• pejoratives (-açu/-açò)

For words that end in a consonant, the letters <c ç> are added to these suffixes, while words that end in -z or -er would add an epenthetic <e> between them. Words that end in <c g> become <ch gh> to preserve the hard sound.

These suffixes can also be combined to form new alterations, akin to Italian:

• u livru "the book"
• u livritu "the little book"
• u livrot "the big book"
• u livròalu "the good book"
• u livritòalu "the little good book"
• u livrotòalu "the big good book"
• u livraçu "the bad book"
• u livritaçu "the little bad book"
• u livrotaçu "the big bad book"

I can't say this enough when I say comments are appreciated (for all my previous posts)

6) Numbers

5.1 Cardinal numbers

Like French, Carpetanian utilizes a vigesimal system for numbers 70-99 (though an decimal system is starting to spread, especially due to the influence of Spanish), though "Old Carpetanian" [1] once also had a vigesimal system for numbers 30-69 as well (those numbers are used primarily by shepherds and crofters to count sheep). Unlike any of the Romance languages within the area though, numbers 11-19 are formed via patterns roughly translated as "x-over-ten".

One (1) and two (2) also have feminine forms (these are also used in numbers ending in either number), while 1 has a separate form for masculine nouns as opposed to when counting to or from.

[1] That is the oldest stage from which Carpetanian began to diverge from Old Spanish

(parentheses marks the crofters' form)

1 - vunu (used when counting), vun (masc.), vunò (fem.)
2 - dö (masc.), duä (fem.)
3 - tři
4 - quatru
5 - cincu
6 - seix
7 - sièt
8 - vocju
9 - nòav
10 - zèç
11 - vunsovèç
12 - dößovèç
13 - třißovèç
14 - catorzovèç
15 - quinsovèç
16 - seixovèç
17 - sièçovèç
18 - vocjuvèç
19 - nòavsovèç
20 - veint
21 - veincivunu
22 - veincidö
23 - veincietři
24 - veinciquatru
30 - třentò (veint-e-zèç)
40 - quarentò (dövint)
50 - cinquantò (dövint-e-zèç)
60 - seißantò - (třivint)
70 - seißantò-e-zèç/setantò (třivint-e-zèç)
80 - quatruvint/vocjantò
90 - quatruvint-e-zèç/novantò
100 - cientu, cien (apocopic; used for composite numbers greater than 110)
200 - döcintu/döcintò
300 - třicintu/třicintò
1,000 - miv
10,000 - zèç-miv
100,000 - cienmiv
1,000,000 - milhón
1,000,000,000 - milhar
1,000,000,000,000 - bilhón

An important note is that Carpetanian, like its neighbors, utilizes the European method (a dot to mark thousands, millions, etc. and a comma for decimals) for tabulating extremely large and small numbers. Thus, milhón-vocjucintu-cinquantò-e-quatru-miv-döcintu-veincinòav would be recorded as 1.854.229 (compared to 1,854,229 in the U.S.)

5.2 Ordinal numbers

Ordinal numbers for numbers 1-10 are unique, and are typically used to form most of the other ordinal numbers. They also should agree by gender and number (with the vowels changing whether the plural uses either -is or vowel mutation).

Abbreviations are formed by the number plus either ᵘ (for masc. nouns) or ᵒ (for fem. nouns)

• 1st = 1ᵘ or 1ᵒ

first - přimeru/přimerò
second - sehundu/sehundò
third - terceru/tercerò
fourth - quartu/quartò
fifth - quintu/quintò
sixth - sextu/sextò
seventh - siêcimu/siêcimò
eighth - vocjavu/vocjavò
ninth - novenu/novenò
tenth - zèçmu/zèçmò

Ordinal numbers for 11-19 are formed by adding -imu/imò to the number.

So anyone want to put out a couple of comments, because I would appreciate it if you do.

IEPH wrote: ↑22 Nov 2018 20:43 3) Orthography

I. Basic Alphabet
Carpetanian utilizes the basic Latin alphabet, with several additional letters, plus a few used only for foreign loanwords

Aa (Bb) Cc Dd Ðð Ee Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj (Kk) Ll Mm Nn Oo Pp (Qq) Rr Řř Ss Tt Uu Vv (Ww) Xx (Yy) Zz Þþ

II. Names
Aa - a
Bb - be, ve largò
Cc - ce
Dd - de
Ðð - eðe
Ee - e
Ff - efe
Gg - ge
Hh -ače
Ii - i
Jj - jot
Kk - ka
Ll - ele
Mm - eme
Nn - ene
Oo - o
Pp - pe
Qq - cu
Rr - erre
Řř - eře
Ss - es
Tt - te
Uu - u
Vv - ve, be cortò
Ww - dopei-ve
Xx - echis, xeix
Yy - i grièhò
Zz - zetò
Þþ - þorn

III. Diacritics and Digraphs
Carpetanian typically utilizes 6 diacritics:

• the acute accent or accentu ahudu <á é í ó ú>, marking stress in close <e o> and <a i u>
• the double acute accent or accentu dopei-ahudu <a̋ ő ű> marking stress in <ä ö ü>
• the grave accent or accentu grav <è ò>, marking open <e o>
• the circumflex or circonflexu <â ê î ô û>, marking stress in <è ò>, as well as the historical deletion of a letter, usually <s>.
• the diaeresis or tremò <ä ë ï ö ü>, marking "plural vowels" /æ œ y/, as well as indicating that the vowel is to be pronounced separately from the preceding vowel (though <ï ü> are mostly used for this purpose)
• the cedilla or cedilhò <ç> which is pronounced /ts/ before back vowels <a ä o ò ö u ü>

...and 7 digraphs:

• <cj> - represents /tɕ/
• <dj> - represents /dʑ/ before <e i>
• <lh> - represents /ʎ/
• <nh> - represents /ɲ/
• <rr> - represents /ʀ/ between vowels (contrasts with r /ʁ/ between vowels; otherwise in complementary distribution)
• <ch> - represents /k/ before <e i>
• <gh> - represents /g/ before <e i>

Sometimes, an interpunct or puntu-mezu (·) is sometimes used to distinguish <·ä ·ö ·ü> (when used to separate vowels) from <ä ö ü> when used as /æ œ y/, and can also distinguish <n·h> (as /n.x/) and <l·h> (as /l.x/) from <nh> (as /ɲ/) and <lh> (as /ʎ/)

IV. Sound-Letter Correspondence
Carpetanian orthography is fairly morphophonemic, with most letters having more than one reading, so these correspondences are merely trends.

/i y u/ = <i ü u>
/e o/ = <e o>
/ə/ = /e/
/ɛ œ ɔ/ = <è ö ò>
/æ/ = <ä>
/ɑ/ = <a>

/p t d k g/ = <p t d c~ch¹ g~gh¹>
/m n ɲ/ = <m n nh>
/f θ ð s z ɕ ʑ χ/ = <f þ ð s z x j h>
/ts tɕ dʑ/ = <c~ç cj dj>
/ʋ w ʁ/ = <v v r~rr>
/ʀ ʀ̝~ʀ̻/ = <r~rr ř>
/ɫ ʎ/ = <l lh>

¹used before <e i>
²used before <a o u>
³in complimentary distribution (only contrasting between vowels)

V. Stress
Similar to Catalan orthography, the standard rules governing the presence of accents are based on word endings and the position of the stressed syllable. In particular, accents are expected for:

• Ultimate (oxytone) syllables ending in a syllabic vowel, a vowel + (historical) -⟨s⟩, or -⟨en⟩/⟨in⟩
• Penultimate (paraoxytone) syllables with any other ending
• Any antepenultimate (proparaoxytone) syllable

Generally, most monosyllabic words do not have a stress mark.

As much as I enjoy your orthography - how do you explain that an Iberian language has acquired the letters ð and þ? I feel like "c" or "z" would propably be more naturalistic, especially when you assume that Castillian is nearby. I'm a little sceptical about ř too, I feel like Carpetanian would propably copy Spanish's r - rr distinction.

IEPH wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018 22:45 So anyone want to put out a couple of comments, because I would appreciate it if you do.

If you notice which languages are most commented around here you'll notice that it's mostly either bad/questionable or unusual conlangs (not counting some rare exceptions like the exceptionally well-thought out Thrinn language). The majority of conlang posts here are not commented at all, but that doesn't mean that people don't read it, don't worry.

Iyionaku wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018 16:02

IEPH wrote: ↑22 Nov 2018 20:43 - snip -

As much as I enjoy your orthography - how do you explain that an Iberian language has acquired the letters ð and þ? I feel like "c" or "z" would propably be more naturalistic, especially when you assume that Castillian is nearby. I'm a little sceptical about ř too, I feel like Carpetanian would propably copy Spanish's r - rr distinction.

As I've explained in the sound changes section, /d g/ lenited to /ð x/ except after a pause, a nasal consonant or (in the case of <d>) a dental consonant. Later, the ð-þ distinction would emerge based on the context where it has been placed (Like the Greek <th>, which was pronounced /ð/ and later /θ/ to better reflect the pronunciation in Constantinople at the time.

<ř> is a separate phoneme entirely from <r~rr> (it is pronounced /ʀ̝~ʀ̝̊/ as opposed to the latter combo which is /ʀ~ʁ/). It emerged from Carpetanian's second palatalization where /r/ (before a front vowel or /i/) changed to /r̝~r̝̊/

Iyionaku wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018 16:02]quote=IEPH post_id=285730 time=1543355144 user_id=3453]
So anyone want to put out a couple of comments, because I would appreciate it if you do.

If you notice which languages are most commented around here you'll notice that it's mostly either bad/questionable or unusual conlangs (not counting some rare exceptions like the exceptionally well-thought out Thrinn language). The majority of conlang posts here are not commented at all, but that doesn't mean that people don't read it, don't worry.
[/quote]

Thanks really. At least it's good to know people are still reading (though I still appreciate the comments that'll help me try and improve the language).

To me, this romlang strikes me as a continuation of Navarro-Aragonese.

I find it unlikely the grapheme <ð> would be used, as it was moribund in all languages, even Icelandic until its revival, and its presence was limited to northern Europe. I agree with Iyionaku that c~z would make more sense, or even a Greek import like th~d(h).

IEPH wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018 23:39

Iyionaku wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018 16:02

IEPH wrote: ↑22 Nov 2018 20:43 - snip -

As much as I enjoy your orthography - how do you explain that an Iberian language has acquired the letters ð and þ? I feel like "c" or "z" would propably be more naturalistic, especially when you assume that Castillian is nearby. I'm a little sceptical about ř too, I feel like Carpetanian would propably copy Spanish's r - rr distinction.

As I've explained in the sound changes section, /d g/ lenited to /ð x/ except after a pause, a nasal consonant or (in the case of <d>) a dental consonant. Later, the ð-þ distinction would emerge based on the context where it has been placed (Like the Greek <th>, which was pronounced /ð/ and later /θ/ to better reflect the pronunciation in Constantinople at the time.

<ř> is a separate phoneme entirely from <r~rr> (it is pronounced /ʀ̝~ʀ̝̊/ as opposed to the latter combo which is /ʀ~ʁ/). It emerged from Carpetanian's second palatalization where /r/ (before a front vowel or /i/) changed to /r̝~r̝̊/

The issue isn't about the phonemes themselves but the way you've chosen to represent them. The point is rather that thorn, eth, and r-hatchek are all orthographically strange and unlikely to occur in the area your language is based

Ælfwine wrote: ↑29 Nov 2018 01:29 To me, this romlang strikes me as a continuation of Navarro-Aragonese.

I find it unlikely the grapheme <ð> would be used, as it was moribund in all languages, even Icelandic until its revival, and its presence was limited to northern Europe. I agree with Iyionaku that c~z would make more sense, or even a Greek import like th~d(h).

spanick wrote: ↑29 Nov 2018 03:31 The issue isn't about the phonemes themselves but the way you've chosen to represent them. The point is rather that thorn, eth, and r-hatchek are all orthographically strange and unlikely to occur in the area your language is based

You know what, I will probably just chalk it up to linguistic reforms of the 19th-20th centuries designed by linguists to help better represent the language's phonemes (especially as the old orthography would've been too cumbersome to work with).

So I've ultimately decided on a place to place Carpetanian in. It'll be a separate country right around the Pyrenees (and the Franco-Spanish border) comprised of Biescas, Sallent de Gállego, Hoz de Jaca, Yésero, Panticosa, Broto, and Torla (on the Spanish side) and Laruns and Eaux-Bonnes (on the French side)*.

The most important points are that it is mostly isolated from the world (owing mostly to the terrain), their history kind of parallels Andorra in some way, and that it was one of the last refuges of the French Huguenots after they were expelled from France proper (meaning the entire country is a Calvinist Protestant island surrounded by a Catholic sea). I'm mostly going for a mini-state/tax haven vibe here.

What do you guys think?

*(See maps here)

spanick wrote: ↑29 Nov 2018 03:31 r-hatchek

I could see it, if it comes from a palatalzation, after Castillian settled on <ñ> for /ɲ/, this languages' orthographers using <r̃>, which evolved into r-hacek. Of course this would depend on whether palatalazation was still involved when the orthography was gelling, though one could handwave it with the idea that they knew it to have palatal origins.

Shemtov wrote: ↑29 Nov 2018 21:58

spanick wrote: ↑29 Nov 2018 03:31 r-hatchek

I could see it, if it comes from a palatalzation, after Castillian settled on <ñ> for /ɲ/, this languages' orthographers using <r̃>, which evolved into r-hacek. Of course this would depend on whether palatalazation was still involved when the orthography was gelling, though one could handwave it with the idea that they knew it to have palatal origins.

That probably could be how the r-haček emerged in Carpetanian independently of its neighbors (It emerged after all, from Carpetanian's second palatalization where /r/ (before a front vowel or /i/) changed to /r̝~r̝̊/ and then /ʀ̝~ʀ̝̊/)

7) Adjectives
Adjectives, as a rule, function much like Spanish and the other Indo-European languages, in that they usually come after the word and are generally divided into those whose base form inflects with the gender (typically those that end in -u) and those that don't.

For plurals, inflection depends on the noun being modified and whether its plural is marked by vowel mutation or -is. Thus, any adjective could have as much as six forms.

• fríu "cold" > fríu, fríò, fríü, fríö, fríüs, fríös
• pequenhu "small" > pequenhu, pequenhò, pequinhu, pequinhò, pequenhüs, pequenhös
• roxu "red" > roxu, roxò, röxu, röxò, roxüs, roxös

Those that typically end in a consonant will inflect only for number. Again, the plural can be modified depending on the noun's plural form.

• cjauienð "hot" > cjauienð, cjauinð, cjauienðis
• verd "greeen" > verd, vird, verdis

There are exceptions to this rule however, mostly those that end in consonants that nevertheless take -ò and thus function like those in the first group (i.e. espanhol > espanholò, espanhöl, espanhölò, espanholis, espanholös) and adjectives borrowed from other languages, which do not inflect at all.

There are also adjectives that rather than come after the word they modify, come before it. Typically these include all ordinal numbers and words like todu "all" and otru "other" (which must be placed before), those that can be added that can change meaning, and those that form something of a fixed phrase within the noun(i.e. autò montanhò "high mountain") that can be added before the noun relatively unchanged.

BTW, before we get to more of Carpetanian, here's a little translation of something inspired by playing Kaiserreich. Hope you like it.

(Also, there are some apocopic forms associated with the text (usually found in poems/lyrics)), usually deleting unstressed vowels when needed.

Fischia il vento (Sofia u vient)

Sofia u vient, vrama ò tormentò,
ü êcärp rötu, e außí devem marcjar
a conquistar ò roxò primaveirò
doneð sorge u sou du porvenir.
A conquistar ò roxò primaveirò
doneð sorge u sou du porvenir.

Cjadò u bairru è patriò du rebelle,
cjadò muger a le dona vun sospir',
nò nocj lo guïan ö êtrilhò,
fòart u cor'çón e u vraçu nu coupir'.
Nò nocj lo guïan ö êtrilhò,
fòart u cor'çón e u vraçu nu coupir'.

Si-e coge ò cruël mòart,
durò vergançò vendrá du partisan',
ormä sehurò è ia ò durò sòart
du faixistò viv e traïdor.
Ormä sehurò è ia ò durò sòart
du faixistò viv e traïdor.

Cesa u vient, cjauma ò tormentò,
vòave a cjasò u fieru partisan',
ondeadu su ò roxò vandeirò,
victořösu, au fin liver som.
Ondeadu su ò roxò vandeirò,
victořösu, au fin liver som.

Original Italian lyrics: