Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Not sure what this is meant to be.
/m n/ ⟨m n⟩
/p t k/ ⟨p t k⟩
/b d g/ ⟨b d g⟩
/v s x/ ⟨w s h⟩
/r l j/ ⟨r l j⟩
/i y u/ ⟨i y u⟩
/e o/ ⟨e o⟩
/a/ ⟨a⟩
Maximal syllable structure CRVC. Any consonant may be in either the onset or coda.
Permissible CR clusters:
pr pl pj
br bl bj
tr tv tj
dr dv dj
kr kl kv kj
gr gl gv gj
sv sj
/tj dj sj/ are [tʃ dʒ ʃ]; /kj gj xj/ are [c ɟ ç].
In open syllables, vowels are long. In closed syllables, the vowels are [ɪ ʏ ʊ ɛ ɔ ɐ].
In unstressed syllables, the contrast between /i/ and /y/ is lost (in favor of /i/).
The orthography faintly suggests something Germanic or Slavic, though the phonotactics are too simple for that.
What to do about coda /v/? My initial thought was to make it [w], so there could be phonetic diphthongs with both [j] and [w]. But for a more Germanic or Slavic flair it could undergo devoicing/assimilation in voicing.
Likewise, I could also have /b d g/ devoice word/morpheme-finally.
For a more Germanic or at least northern European feel, I could also expand the vowel contrasts - perhaps in open syllables there ought to be a mid-high and mid-low contrast.
But of course it lacks /f/ and /sC/ clusters. Perhaps it could be a Germanic language where /f/ merged with /x/. Or maybe it didn't historically have /f/, but /f/ was introduced via loanwords, if it is indeed in a European setting.
Another Germanic feature that could be added is /ŋ/, for the coda only.
Maybe this could be for a funny little non-IE language situated in northern Europe somewhere.
/m n/ ⟨m n⟩
/p t k/ ⟨p t k⟩
/b d g/ ⟨b d g⟩
/v s x/ ⟨w s h⟩
/r l j/ ⟨r l j⟩
/i y u/ ⟨i y u⟩
/e o/ ⟨e o⟩
/a/ ⟨a⟩
Maximal syllable structure CRVC. Any consonant may be in either the onset or coda.
Permissible CR clusters:
pr pl pj
br bl bj
tr tv tj
dr dv dj
kr kl kv kj
gr gl gv gj
sv sj
/tj dj sj/ are [tʃ dʒ ʃ]; /kj gj xj/ are [c ɟ ç].
In open syllables, vowels are long. In closed syllables, the vowels are [ɪ ʏ ʊ ɛ ɔ ɐ].
In unstressed syllables, the contrast between /i/ and /y/ is lost (in favor of /i/).
The orthography faintly suggests something Germanic or Slavic, though the phonotactics are too simple for that.
What to do about coda /v/? My initial thought was to make it [w], so there could be phonetic diphthongs with both [j] and [w]. But for a more Germanic or Slavic flair it could undergo devoicing/assimilation in voicing.
Likewise, I could also have /b d g/ devoice word/morpheme-finally.
For a more Germanic or at least northern European feel, I could also expand the vowel contrasts - perhaps in open syllables there ought to be a mid-high and mid-low contrast.
But of course it lacks /f/ and /sC/ clusters. Perhaps it could be a Germanic language where /f/ merged with /x/. Or maybe it didn't historically have /f/, but /f/ was introduced via loanwords, if it is indeed in a European setting.
Another Germanic feature that could be added is /ŋ/, for the coda only.
Maybe this could be for a funny little non-IE language situated in northern Europe somewhere.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Heligoland Frisian has /v/->[w] finally, but also /b/->[p] in the same position. And it's Germanic. Maybe this could be a language isolate on some North Sea Island...Porphyrogenitos wrote: ↑20 Jan 2024 20:24 What to do about coda /v/? My initial thought was to make it [w], so there could be phonetic diphthongs with both [j] and [w]. But for a more Germanic or Slavic flair it could undergo devoicing/assimilation in voicing.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
p t k kʷ ʔ <p t k qu '>
t͡s k͡s <c x>
s h <s h>
m n ŋ <m n ng>
β l ɹ j ɰ w <b l r y g w>
i ʉ <i u>
o <o>
ä <a>
CGV(:)U
G: β l ɹ j w <b l r y w>
U: p̚ t̚ k̚ k̚ʷ ʔ̚
t͡s k͡s <c x>
s h <s h>
m n ŋ <m n ng>
β l ɹ j ɰ w <b l r y g w>
i ʉ <i u>
o <o>
ä <a>
CGV(:)U
G: β l ɹ j w <b l r y w>
U: p̚ t̚ k̚ k̚ʷ ʔ̚
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/m n/
/mb b nd d t tʰ k kʰ/
/ts kx/
/s x/
/β z/
/ʙ r/
/l ʟ/
/i u/
/ɪ/
/e/
/ɛ ɔ/
/æ ɑ/
the language probably has ATR vowel harmony and something going on with nasals (maybe dissimilation) and probably also consonant gradation. /ʙ ʟ/ might be marginal in some way.
/mb b nd d t tʰ k kʰ/
/ts kx/
/s x/
/β z/
/ʙ r/
/l ʟ/
/i u/
/ɪ/
/e/
/ɛ ɔ/
/æ ɑ/
the language probably has ATR vowel harmony and something going on with nasals (maybe dissimilation) and probably also consonant gradation. /ʙ ʟ/ might be marginal in some way.
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- VaptuantaDoi
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Thinking about reviving Ánni. With lots of tones presumably. I never liked old Ánni very much but the idea was interesting.
And hey, thinking of re-vamping Ai too:
/b d k/
/s h/
/i y u ɛ œ ɔ a/
b d k → [β l ʕ] / V_V
h → [x] / _œ
With proto-Tariku *i̝ u̝ i u ɛ ɔ a → */i y e u ɛ ɔ a/ then a Landais Occitan-style shift */e/ → /œ/:
*kdiCV → /di/ "banana"
*tuCV → /ky/ "penis"
*pidi → /hœdœ/ "skin"
*kuda → /uda/ "tree"
As you can see here there has been a *t k → /k Ø/ shift.
Code: Select all
t k i u
ps ts i͡a u͡a
m n ɪ
ɸ s e ø o
w ɫ̪ z j ɛ ɔ
a
kǀ kǃ
ŋǀ ŋǃ
And hey, thinking of re-vamping Ai too:
/b d k/
/s h/
/i y u ɛ œ ɔ a/
b d k → [β l ʕ] / V_V
h → [x] / _œ
With proto-Tariku *i̝ u̝ i u ɛ ɔ a → */i y e u ɛ ɔ a/ then a Landais Occitan-style shift */e/ → /œ/:
*kdiCV → /di/ "banana"
*tuCV → /ky/ "penis"
*pidi → /hœdœ/ "skin"
*kuda → /uda/ "tree"
As you can see here there has been a *t k → /k Ø/ shift.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
A second version:
t' k' kʷ' <tt kk qq>
p t k kʷ ʔ <p t k qu '>
t͡s k͡s <c x>
s h <s h>
m n ŋ <m n ng>
l ɹ j w <l r y w>
i ʉ <i u>
o <o>
ä <a>
Maximal syllable: CVU
where U is /ʔ/ or /h/.
Vowels are short, long, or (longish) nasalized.
High and low tone, no contours.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/t k/
/s x/
/m n/
/ɾ j w/
/ɨ/
/e o/
/a/
CV(m, k)
Are there any natural languages that have /ɨ/ without /i/?
/s x/
/m n/
/ɾ j w/
/ɨ/
/e o/
/a/
CV(m, k)
Are there any natural languages that have /ɨ/ without /i/?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Looking through phoible there are some languages with /ɨ/ but no /i/. It's certainly not common, but it does exist.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
A possible descendent of my current conlang project. I was messing around with sound changes and accidently made the sound inventory more than two times larger lol. This is probably the largest inventory Ive made but I am really vibing with it.
/m, m:, n, n:, ɲ, ɲ:, ŋ, ŋ:/ m, mm, n, nn, nh, nnh, ng, nng
/p, b, t, d, c, ɟ, k, g/ p, b, t, d, c, j, k, g
/β, βː, ð, ð:, s,s:, z, z:, ʝ, ʝ:, ɣ, ɣ:/ bh, bb, dh, dd, s, ss, z, zz, jh, jj, gh, gg
/lʷ, lʷ:, l, l:, ʎ, ʎ/ lw, llw, l, ll, lh, llh
/w, w:, j, j:/ w, ww, y, yy
/i, i:, y:~ʉ:, u, u:/ i, ii, ü, u, uu
/ɛ, e:, ø:~ɵ:, ɔ, o:/ e, ee, ö, o, oo
/ä/ a
/ai̯, au̯/ ai, au
/m, m:, n, n:, ɲ, ɲ:, ŋ, ŋ:/ m, mm, n, nn, nh, nnh, ng, nng
/p, b, t, d, c, ɟ, k, g/ p, b, t, d, c, j, k, g
/β, βː, ð, ð:, s,s:, z, z:, ʝ, ʝ:, ɣ, ɣ:/ bh, bb, dh, dd, s, ss, z, zz, jh, jj, gh, gg
/lʷ, lʷ:, l, l:, ʎ, ʎ/ lw, llw, l, ll, lh, llh
/w, w:, j, j:/ w, ww, y, yy
/i, i:, y:~ʉ:, u, u:/ i, ii, ü, u, uu
/ɛ, e:, ø:~ɵ:, ɔ, o:/ e, ee, ö, o, oo
/ä/ a
/ai̯, au̯/ ai, au
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she/they/fluff
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
And still one versionOmzinesý wrote: ↑26 Jan 2024 15:12A second version:
t' k' kʷ' <tt kk qq>
p t k kʷ ʔ <p t k qu '>
t͡s k͡s <c x>
s h <s h>
m n ŋ <m n ng>
l ɹ j w <l r y w>
i ʉ <i u>
o <o>
ä <a>
Maximal syllable: CVU
where U is /ʔ/ or /h/.
Vowels are short, long, or (longish) nasalized.
High and low tone, no contours.
p' t' k' <tt kk>
p t k ʔ <p t k qu '>
t͡s k͡s <c x>
s h <s h>
m n ŋ <m n ng>
β l ɹ j w <v l r y>
i ĩ ɨ ɨ̃ u ũ
ə
æ æ̃ ɑ ɑ̃ ɔ ɔ̃
Onset clusters: plosive/affricate + approximant
Coda /ʔ/ or /h/
All unstressed vowels are schwa, but schwa can be stressed.
There are two tones high and low on the stressed syllables.
/l/ and nasals can appear as syllablic consonants and, if stressed, have tone (much as in Bantu.)
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/ɴ ʔ/
/ɸ s ʃ x xʷ/
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ/
/r j w/
/ə/
Syllable structure: (C)(ə)(ɴ|ʔ) + extrametrical initial glottal. ɴ may not appear before a nasal.
ʔF > P
ɴF ɴw ɴr ɴj > MB mbw ndr ɲɟ
əə əjə əwə > a e o
ɴ > ɦ̃ / V_V
Vɴ > Ṽ / _#
ɨ is epenthetic
Kʷə Kʷɨ > Ko Ku
[ɸaʔ xotɨ jaⁿbwuoⁿbəⁿdro xondə̃ seiteiʔ kʷiʔombɨ fandrombəŋgə xutɨrɨŋgə ŋ̩goxũ]
/ɸəəʔ xʷəʔt jəəɴwwɴɸəɴrəw xʷəɴsəɴ səjʔsəjʔ kʷjʔwəɴɸ ɸəəɴrəwəɴɸəɴxə xʷˀsrɴxə ɴxʷəxʷɴ/
[p t tʃ k kʷ] (labiovelars only occur before front vowels)
[mb nd ndʒ ŋg ŋgʷ]
[ɸ s ʃ x xʷ]
[m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ ɦ̃]
[mbw ndr ɲɟ]
[a e ə o i ɨ u]
/ɸ s ʃ x xʷ/
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ/
/r j w/
/ə/
Syllable structure: (C)(ə)(ɴ|ʔ) + extrametrical initial glottal. ɴ may not appear before a nasal.
ʔF > P
ɴF ɴw ɴr ɴj > MB mbw ndr ɲɟ
əə əjə əwə > a e o
ɴ > ɦ̃ / V_V
Vɴ > Ṽ / _#
ɨ is epenthetic
Kʷə Kʷɨ > Ko Ku
[ɸaʔ xotɨ jaⁿbwuoⁿbəⁿdro xondə̃ seiteiʔ kʷiʔombɨ fandrombəŋgə xutɨrɨŋgə ŋ̩goxũ]
/ɸəəʔ xʷəʔt jəəɴwwɴɸəɴrəw xʷəɴsəɴ səjʔsəjʔ kʷjʔwəɴɸ ɸəəɴrəwəɴɸəɴxə xʷˀsrɴxə ɴxʷəxʷɴ/
[p t tʃ k kʷ] (labiovelars only occur before front vowels)
[mb nd ndʒ ŋg ŋgʷ]
[ɸ s ʃ x xʷ]
[m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ ɦ̃]
[mbw ndr ɲɟ]
[a e ə o i ɨ u]
Last edited by Nortaneous on 30 Jan 2024 15:44, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
What is the phonemic form of [fandrombəŋgə]?Nortaneous wrote: ↑28 Jan 2024 22:24 /ɴ ʔ/
/ɸ s ʃ x xʷ/
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ/
/r j w/
/ə/
Syllable structure: (C)(ə)(ɴ|ʔ) + extrametrical initial glottal. ɴ may not appear before a nasal.
ʔF > P
ɴF ɴw ɴr ɴj > MB mbw ndr ɲɟ
əə əjə əwə > a e o
ɴ > ɦ̃ / V_V
Vɴ > Ṽ / _#
ɨ is epenthetic
Kʷə Kʷɨ > Ko Ku
[ɸaʔ xotɨ jaⁿbwuoⁿbəⁿdro xondə̃ seiteiʔ kʷiʔombɨ fandrombəŋgə xutɨrɨŋgə ŋ̩goxũ]
/ɸəəʔ xʷəʔt jəəɴwwɴɸəɴrəw xʷəɴsəɴ səjʔsəjʔ kʷjʔwəɴɸ xʷtrɴxə ɴxʷəxʷɴ/
[p t tʃ k kʷ] (labiovelars only occur before front vowels)
[mb nd ndʒ ŋg ŋgʷ]
[ɸ s ʃ x xʷ]
[m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ ɦ̃]
[mbw ndr ɲɟ]
[a e ə o i ɨ u]
/ɸəəɴrəwɴɸəɴxə/?
There also seems to be a random phonemic /t/. Is this an allophone? There is a phonetically rendered [t], which makes sense to your diagrams. Would you shed light?
No matter what, this is awesome, and weirdly intuitive.
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
- WeepingElf
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Yes. It blows my own Svalbardian right out of the water!
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I had one called Yatton that had /p t k ʔ i u a/. (Sadly, it got weird.) Your allophony is very reminiscent of my process, then.
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I would like to see Ai be active again.VaptuantaDoi wrote: ↑26 Jan 2024 02:09 And hey, thinking of re-vamping Ai too:
/b d k/
/s h/
/i y u ɛ œ ɔ a/
b d k → [β l ʕ] / V_V
h → [x] / _œ
With proto-Tariku *i̝ u̝ i u ɛ ɔ a → */i y e u ɛ ɔ a/ then a Landais Occitan-style shift */e/ → /œ/:
*kdiCV → /di/ "banana"
*tuCV → /ky/ "penis"
*pidi → /hœdœ/ "skin"
*kuda → /uda/ "tree"
As you can see here there has been a *t k → /k Ø/ shift.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I'm loving all of these minimalist, Iau/Gadsup-influenced inventories. Also, WeepingElf, since you mentioned it, I've been a fan of your Svalbardian sketch ever since I encountered it. It would be cool to see you do something more with it.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Thank you! I do have the intention to do something more with it, but it currently doesn't have high priority.Porphyrogenitos wrote: ↑29 Jan 2024 23:06 I'm loving all of these minimalist, Iau/Gadsup-influenced inventories. Also, WeepingElf, since you mentioned it, I've been a fan of your Svalbardian sketch ever since I encountered it. It would be cool to see you do something more with it.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Proto-system:
/p pˠ b bˠ t tˠ d dˠ k̟ k̠/
/v vˠ s sˠ z zˠ/
/m mˠ n nˠ ŋ˖ ŋ˗/
/r rˠ l lˠ/
/æ i u/ ~ /ɑ e o/ when adjacent to velarized consonants (but not [pre]velars) or uvulars
Merge velars with uvulars
æ, e → ɛ
ɑ, o → ɔ
Proto-language mostly consists of monosyllabic CVC roots, with -V(C) suffixes
Modern language has some semblance of height harmony...kinda?
tod, tode (*tadˠ, tadˠi)
ted, tedi(*tad, tadi)
/p pˠ b bˠ t tˠ d dˠ k̟ k̠/
/v vˠ s sˠ z zˠ/
/m mˠ n nˠ ŋ˖ ŋ˗/
/r rˠ l lˠ/
/æ i u/ ~ /ɑ e o/ when adjacent to velarized consonants (but not [pre]velars) or uvulars
Merge velars with uvulars
æ, e → ɛ
ɑ, o → ɔ
Proto-language mostly consists of monosyllabic CVC roots, with -V(C) suffixes
Modern language has some semblance of height harmony...kinda?
tod, tode (*tadˠ, tadˠi)
ted, tedi(*tad, tadi)
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