You know what, I was going to put that! I even had originally put exactly that, but couldn't decide, so I put the schwa in a set of parentheses. I looked at your Phonotactics a bit more, and decided upon no schwa. This was a nice test in phonetic approximating.Nortaneous wrote: ↑30 Jan 2024 15:44/ɸəəɴrəwəɴɸəɴxə/?
oopsThere also seems to be a random phonemic /t/. Is this an allophone? There is a phonetically rendered [t], which makes sense to your diagrams. Would you shed light?
Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
-
- greek
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- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 13:28
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
rəwɴɸəɴxə > rəwɨɴɸəɴxə > roumbəŋgəDV82LECM wrote: ↑30 Jan 2024 16:18You know what, I was going to put that! I even had originally put exactly that, but couldn't decide, so I put the schwa in a set of parentheses. I looked at your Phonotactics a bit more, and decided upon no schwa. This was a nice test in phonetic approximating.Nortaneous wrote: ↑30 Jan 2024 15:44/ɸəəɴrəwəɴɸəɴxə/?
oopsThere also seems to be a random phonemic /t/. Is this an allophone? There is a phonetically rendered [t], which makes sense to your diagrams. Would you shed light?
rəwəɴɸəɴxə > rəwəɴɸəɴxə > rombəŋgə
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Thank you for the clarification. With phonotactics after my own heart, I hope you forge it forward.Nortaneous wrote: ↑01 Feb 2024 03:02rəwɴɸəɴxə > rəwɨɴɸəɴxə > roumbəŋgəDV82LECM wrote: ↑30 Jan 2024 16:18You know what, I was going to put that! I even had originally put exactly that, but couldn't decide, so I put the schwa in a set of parentheses. I looked at your Phonotactics a bit more, and decided upon no schwa. This was a nice test in phonetic approximating.Nortaneous wrote: ↑30 Jan 2024 15:44/ɸəəɴrəwəɴɸəɴxə/?
oopsThere also seems to be a random phonemic /t/. Is this an allophone? There is a phonetically rendered [t], which makes sense to your diagrams. Would you shed light?
rəwəɴɸəɴxə > rəwəɴɸəɴxə > rombəŋgə
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
- VaptuantaDoi
- roman
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- Joined: 18 Nov 2019 07:35
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
South American + Australian + Ramu languages + Hiw + Yimas, perchance?
/p pʷ t̺ t̻ ʈ c k kʷ/
/b bʷ d̺ d̻ ɖ ɟ ʔ ʔʷ/
/ɡ͡ʟ w/
/i ɨ/
/ĩ ɨ̃/
Syllable structure is C(V); plain C syllables surface as [Ca]. /i ɨ/ are lowered to [ə ɔ] following /pʷ ʈ c kʷ bʷ ɖ ɟ ʔʷ w/ (what do you mean, of course that's a natural class). Voiced stops are nasalised before /ĩ ɨ̃/; this includes /ʔ ʔʷ/ → [ŋ ŋʷ]. And also /ɡ͡ʟ w/ become [n̺ ɳ] (goes without saying).
Words may only begin with /p t̺ t̻ k b d̺ ɡ͡ʟ/, except /p t̻ ɡ͡ʟ/ surface as zero; this produces word-initial [ə ɔ a].
There is a right-edge consonant mutation phenomenon which can be attached to bound or free morphemes referred to as "darkening", transcribed *. This causes rounding of /p k b ɡ͡ʟ/ to /pʷ kʷ bʷ w/ and backing of /t̺ t̻ d̺/ to /ʈ c ɖ/, exemplified by the commissive prefix /p*-/:
/pɨɟiw-ɨ̃/ [ɨɟəɳɔ̃] (eat-1sg)
/p*-pɨɟiw-ɨ̃/ [apʷəɟəɳɔ̃] (commiss-eat-1sg)
Why not let's throw Yélî Dnye into the mix too?
/p k͡pʷ p͡t̺ p͡t̻ t̺ t̻ ʈ ʈʷ p͡c c k/
/ᵐb ᵑ͡ᵐɡ͡bʷ ᵐ͡ⁿ̺b͡d̺ ᵐ͡ⁿ̻b͡d̻ ⁿ̺d̺ ⁿ̻d̻ ᶯɖ ᶯɖʷ ᵐ͡ᶮb͡ɟ ᶮɟ ᵑʔ ᵑʔʷ/
/b͡m ɡ͡b͜ŋ͡mʷ b͡d̺͜m͡n̺ b͡d̻͜m͡n̻ d̺͡n̺ d̻͡n̻ ɖ͡ɳ ɖ͡ɳʷ b͡ɟ͜m͡ɲ ɟ͡ɲ ʔ͡ŋ ʔ͡ŋʷ/
/ɡ͡ʟ w/
/i/
/ĩ/
Syllables are still C(V) with epenthetic [a]. /i/ becomes [o] after (*deep breath*) /k͡pʷ ʈ ʈʷ p͡c c ᵑ͡ᵐɡ͡bʷ ᶯɖ ᶯɖʷ ᵐ͡ᶮb͡ɟ ᶮɟ ᵑʔʷ ɡ͡b͜ŋ͡mʷ ɖ͡ɳ ɖ͡ɳʷ b͡ɟ͜m͡ɲ ɟ͡ɲ ʔ͡ŋʷ w/ Vowel nasalisation removes the stop element from one side of a stop/nasal phoneme, i.e. /-ĩb͡m-/ → [-ĩm-], /-ᵐbĩ-/ → [-mĩ-] but /-ĩᵐb/ → [-ĩᵐb]. Also /ɡ͡ʟ w/ → [m͡n̺ ɳʷ] either side of /ĩ/.
Word-initially the following phonemes are permitted:
/p p͡t̺ p͡t̻ t̺ t̻ k/
/ᵐb ᵐ͡ⁿ̺b͡d̺ ᵐ͡ⁿ̻b͡d̻ ⁿ̺d̺ ⁿ̻d̻ ᵑʔ/
/b͡m b͡d̺͜m͡n̺ b͡d̻͜m͡n̻ d̺͡n̺ d̻͡n̻ ʔ͡ŋ/
/ɡ͡ʟ/
Everything apart from /t̺ t̻ k/ is realised as zero (welcome back surface [a]).
The same darkening occurs – /p p͡t̺ p͡t̻ t̺ t̻ k ᵐb ᵐ͡ⁿ̺b͡d̺ ᵐ͡ⁿ̻b͡d̻ ⁿ̺d̺ ⁿ̻d̻ ᵑʔ b͡m b͡d̺͜m͡n̺ b͡d̻͜m͡n̻ d̺͡n̺ d̻͡n̻ ʔ͡ŋ ɡ͡ʟ/ → /k͡pʷ ʈʷ p͡c ʈ c k͡pʷ ᵑ͡ᵐɡ͡bʷ ᶯɖʷ ᵐ͡ᶮb͡ɟ ᶯɖ ᶮɟ ᵑʔʷ ɡ͡b͜ŋ͡mʷ ɖ͡ɳ b͡ɟ͜m͡ɲ ɖ͡ɳʷ ɟ͡ɲ ʔ͡ŋʷ w/.
/b͡d̺͜m͡n̺/ → [a]
/pĩ*-b͡d̺͜m͡n̺/ → [ĩm͡n̺a]
Even better, turn this into Ánni:
/p t̺ t̻ ʈ ʈʷ c k/ ⟨p t th rt vt c k⟩
/ᵐb ⁿ̺d̺ ⁿ̻d̻ ᶯɖ ᶯɖʷ ᶮɟ/ ⟨b d dh rd vd j⟩
/b͡m d̺͡n̺ d̻͡n̻ ɖ͡ɳ ɖ͡ɳʷ ɟ͡ɲ/ ⟨bm dn dnh rdn vdn jn⟩
/ŋ̰₁ ŋ̰ʷ₁/ ⟨ng' ngu'⟩
/ŋ̰₂ ŋ̰ʷ₂/ ⟨'ng 'ngu⟩
/w/ ⟨w⟩
/k͡ʘʷ k͡ǃ̺ k͡ǃ̻ k͡ǂ/ ⟨pq q qh cq⟩
/ɡ͡ʘʷ ɡ͡ǃ̺ ɡ͡ǃ̻ ɡ͡ǁ ɡ͡ǂ/ ⟨bq dq dqh lq jq⟩
/ŋ͡ʘʷ ŋ͡ǃ̺ ŋ͡ǃ̻ ŋ͡ǂ/ ⟨mq nq nqh yq⟩
/i ĩ/ ⟨i e⟩
[m n̺ n̻ ɳ ɳʷ ɲ ŋ ŋʷ] ⟨m n nh rn vn y ng ngu⟩
[o õ] ⟨o f⟩
[a] ⟨a⟩
Light/dark pairs are
/ŋ̰₁ ŋ̰ʷ₁/ become [ŋ ŋʷ] before /ĩ/, /ŋ̰₁ ŋ̰ʷ₁/ after.
Perhaps I have gone too far.
/p pʷ t̺ t̻ ʈ c k kʷ/
/b bʷ d̺ d̻ ɖ ɟ ʔ ʔʷ/
/ɡ͡ʟ w/
/i ɨ/
/ĩ ɨ̃/
Syllable structure is C(V); plain C syllables surface as [Ca]. /i ɨ/ are lowered to [ə ɔ] following /pʷ ʈ c kʷ bʷ ɖ ɟ ʔʷ w/ (what do you mean, of course that's a natural class). Voiced stops are nasalised before /ĩ ɨ̃/; this includes /ʔ ʔʷ/ → [ŋ ŋʷ]. And also /ɡ͡ʟ w/ become [n̺ ɳ] (goes without saying).
Words may only begin with /p t̺ t̻ k b d̺ ɡ͡ʟ/, except /p t̻ ɡ͡ʟ/ surface as zero; this produces word-initial [ə ɔ a].
There is a right-edge consonant mutation phenomenon which can be attached to bound or free morphemes referred to as "darkening", transcribed *. This causes rounding of /p k b ɡ͡ʟ/ to /pʷ kʷ bʷ w/ and backing of /t̺ t̻ d̺/ to /ʈ c ɖ/, exemplified by the commissive prefix /p*-/:
/pɨɟiw-ɨ̃/ [ɨɟəɳɔ̃] (eat-1sg)
/p*-pɨɟiw-ɨ̃/ [apʷəɟəɳɔ̃] (commiss-eat-1sg)
Why not let's throw Yélî Dnye into the mix too?
/p k͡pʷ p͡t̺ p͡t̻ t̺ t̻ ʈ ʈʷ p͡c c k/
/ᵐb ᵑ͡ᵐɡ͡bʷ ᵐ͡ⁿ̺b͡d̺ ᵐ͡ⁿ̻b͡d̻ ⁿ̺d̺ ⁿ̻d̻ ᶯɖ ᶯɖʷ ᵐ͡ᶮb͡ɟ ᶮɟ ᵑʔ ᵑʔʷ/
/b͡m ɡ͡b͜ŋ͡mʷ b͡d̺͜m͡n̺ b͡d̻͜m͡n̻ d̺͡n̺ d̻͡n̻ ɖ͡ɳ ɖ͡ɳʷ b͡ɟ͜m͡ɲ ɟ͡ɲ ʔ͡ŋ ʔ͡ŋʷ/
/ɡ͡ʟ w/
/i/
/ĩ/
Syllables are still C(V) with epenthetic [a]. /i/ becomes [o] after (*deep breath*) /k͡pʷ ʈ ʈʷ p͡c c ᵑ͡ᵐɡ͡bʷ ᶯɖ ᶯɖʷ ᵐ͡ᶮb͡ɟ ᶮɟ ᵑʔʷ ɡ͡b͜ŋ͡mʷ ɖ͡ɳ ɖ͡ɳʷ b͡ɟ͜m͡ɲ ɟ͡ɲ ʔ͡ŋʷ w/ Vowel nasalisation removes the stop element from one side of a stop/nasal phoneme, i.e. /-ĩb͡m-/ → [-ĩm-], /-ᵐbĩ-/ → [-mĩ-] but /-ĩᵐb/ → [-ĩᵐb]. Also /ɡ͡ʟ w/ → [m͡n̺ ɳʷ] either side of /ĩ/.
Word-initially the following phonemes are permitted:
/p p͡t̺ p͡t̻ t̺ t̻ k/
/ᵐb ᵐ͡ⁿ̺b͡d̺ ᵐ͡ⁿ̻b͡d̻ ⁿ̺d̺ ⁿ̻d̻ ᵑʔ/
/b͡m b͡d̺͜m͡n̺ b͡d̻͜m͡n̻ d̺͡n̺ d̻͡n̻ ʔ͡ŋ/
/ɡ͡ʟ/
Everything apart from /t̺ t̻ k/ is realised as zero (welcome back surface [a]).
The same darkening occurs – /p p͡t̺ p͡t̻ t̺ t̻ k ᵐb ᵐ͡ⁿ̺b͡d̺ ᵐ͡ⁿ̻b͡d̻ ⁿ̺d̺ ⁿ̻d̻ ᵑʔ b͡m b͡d̺͜m͡n̺ b͡d̻͜m͡n̻ d̺͡n̺ d̻͡n̻ ʔ͡ŋ ɡ͡ʟ/ → /k͡pʷ ʈʷ p͡c ʈ c k͡pʷ ᵑ͡ᵐɡ͡bʷ ᶯɖʷ ᵐ͡ᶮb͡ɟ ᶯɖ ᶮɟ ᵑʔʷ ɡ͡b͜ŋ͡mʷ ɖ͡ɳ b͡ɟ͜m͡ɲ ɖ͡ɳʷ ɟ͡ɲ ʔ͡ŋʷ w/.
/b͡d̺͜m͡n̺/ → [a]
/pĩ*-b͡d̺͜m͡n̺/ → [ĩm͡n̺a]
Even better, turn this into Ánni:
/p t̺ t̻ ʈ ʈʷ c k/ ⟨p t th rt vt c k⟩
/ᵐb ⁿ̺d̺ ⁿ̻d̻ ᶯɖ ᶯɖʷ ᶮɟ/ ⟨b d dh rd vd j⟩
/b͡m d̺͡n̺ d̻͡n̻ ɖ͡ɳ ɖ͡ɳʷ ɟ͡ɲ/ ⟨bm dn dnh rdn vdn jn⟩
/ŋ̰₁ ŋ̰ʷ₁/ ⟨ng' ngu'⟩
/ŋ̰₂ ŋ̰ʷ₂/ ⟨'ng 'ngu⟩
/w/ ⟨w⟩
/k͡ʘʷ k͡ǃ̺ k͡ǃ̻ k͡ǂ/ ⟨pq q qh cq⟩
/ɡ͡ʘʷ ɡ͡ǃ̺ ɡ͡ǃ̻ ɡ͡ǁ ɡ͡ǂ/ ⟨bq dq dqh lq jq⟩
/ŋ͡ʘʷ ŋ͡ǃ̺ ŋ͡ǃ̻ ŋ͡ǂ/ ⟨mq nq nqh yq⟩
/i ĩ/ ⟨i e⟩
[m n̺ n̻ ɳ ɳʷ ɲ ŋ ŋʷ] ⟨m n nh rn vn y ng ngu⟩
[o õ] ⟨o f⟩
[a] ⟨a⟩
Light/dark pairs are
Code: Select all
+-------+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+
| LIGHT | p | t̺ | t̻ | k | ᵐb | ⁿ̺d̺ | ⁿ̻d̻ | b͡m | d̺͡n̺ | d̻͡n̻ | ŋ̰₁ | ŋ̰₂ | k͡ǃ̺ | k͡ǃ̻ | ŋ͡ǃ̺ | ŋ͡ǃ̻ | ɡ͡ǃ̺ | ɡ͡ǃ̻ | ɡ͡ǁ |
+-------+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+
| DARK | k͡ʘʷ | ʈ | c | k͡ʘʷ | ŋ͡ʘʷ | ᶯɖ | ᶮɟ | ɡ͡ʘʷ | ɖ͡ɳʷ | ɟ͡ɲ | ŋ̰ʷ₁ | ŋ̰ʷ₂ | ʈʷ | k͡ǂ | ᶯɖʷ | ŋ͡ǂ | ɖ͡ɳ | ɡ͡ǂ | w |
+-------+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+
Perhaps I have gone too far.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5153
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I liked the first option best. Reminds me of diachrobically inspired analyses of North American natlangs.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
- VaptuantaDoi
- roman
- Posts: 1091
- Joined: 18 Nov 2019 07:35
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Mmm. I agree.
As usual I can't stop myself from reducing the number of consonants as much as possible:
/t c k k͡p/
/b ɾ ɟ g͡b/
/i u/
/ẽ/
Syllables C(V)
#CC, CC# → CaC
CɾC → CɾaC
CCC → CaCC
At word boundaries /ɾ/ is realised as zero
b ɾ ɟ g͡b → m n ɲ ŋ͡m / _ẽ
i u → e o / c ɟ k͡p g͡b _
k → c /_i
k → kp /_u
The latter three rules mean that [ci ce k͡pu k͡po] contrast at a surface level.
Words may only begin with /b t k ɾ/ (i.e. [b t k i u ẽ a]). Prefixes can be voicing (*) or darkening (†). Vocing shifts /t k/ to /ɾ Ø/, without affecting /b ɾ/. Note that the shift of /k/ → Ø shows the lack of phonemicity of /a/:
/kɟu/ → [kaɟo]
/g͡b*-kɟu/ → /g͡bɟu/ → [g͡baɟo]
/tuɟiɟ/ → [tuɟeɟ]
/g͡b*-tuɟiɟ/ → [g͡baɾuɟeɟ]
Darkening shifts /b t k ɾ/ to /g͡b c k͡p ɟ/ (/t ɾ/ are or were lamino-dental rather than alveolar)
/ɾẽ†-kɟu/ → [ẽk͡pɟo]
This does interesting things to /ku/
/kucɾ/ → [k͡puca]
/ɾẽ†-kucɾ/ → [ẽk͡poca]
The combinations of voicing+darkening (/b t k ɾ/ → /g͡b ɟ Ø ɟ/) and darkening+voicing (/b t k ɾ/ → /g͡b ɟ g͡b ɟ/) probably occur fossilised somewhere.
Surface analysis would probably suggest a vowel inventory of /i u e ẽ o a/ and (C)(ɾ)V(C) syllables.
Hell, you could probably analyse /b t k ɾ/ as the only phonemes and treat voicing/darkening as a vocalic feature alongside nasality, cept then you'd have to have /a/.
As usual I can't stop myself from reducing the number of consonants as much as possible:
/t c k k͡p/
/b ɾ ɟ g͡b/
/i u/
/ẽ/
Syllables C(V)
#CC, CC# → CaC
CɾC → CɾaC
CCC → CaCC
At word boundaries /ɾ/ is realised as zero
b ɾ ɟ g͡b → m n ɲ ŋ͡m / _ẽ
i u → e o / c ɟ k͡p g͡b _
k → c /_i
k → kp /_u
The latter three rules mean that [ci ce k͡pu k͡po] contrast at a surface level.
Words may only begin with /b t k ɾ/ (i.e. [b t k i u ẽ a]). Prefixes can be voicing (*) or darkening (†). Vocing shifts /t k/ to /ɾ Ø/, without affecting /b ɾ/. Note that the shift of /k/ → Ø shows the lack of phonemicity of /a/:
/kɟu/ → [kaɟo]
/g͡b*-kɟu/ → /g͡bɟu/ → [g͡baɟo]
/tuɟiɟ/ → [tuɟeɟ]
/g͡b*-tuɟiɟ/ → [g͡baɾuɟeɟ]
Darkening shifts /b t k ɾ/ to /g͡b c k͡p ɟ/ (/t ɾ/ are or were lamino-dental rather than alveolar)
/ɾẽ†-kɟu/ → [ẽk͡pɟo]
This does interesting things to /ku/
/kucɾ/ → [k͡puca]
/ɾẽ†-kucɾ/ → [ẽk͡poca]
The combinations of voicing+darkening (/b t k ɾ/ → /g͡b ɟ Ø ɟ/) and darkening+voicing (/b t k ɾ/ → /g͡b ɟ g͡b ɟ/) probably occur fossilised somewhere.
Surface analysis would probably suggest a vowel inventory of /i u e ẽ o a/ and (C)(ɾ)V(C) syllables.
Hell, you could probably analyse /b t k ɾ/ as the only phonemes and treat voicing/darkening as a vocalic feature alongside nasality, cept then you'd have to have /a/.
-
- sinic
- Posts: 404
- Joined: 21 Jul 2012 08:01
- Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
My own (loosely) Lakes Plain inspired inventory, since VaptuantaDoi got me reading more about them:
/p t k/
/b d/
/s/
That's my starting point for the consonants, at least. There might be more.
The vowels I have thought more about:
/r̩/
/i u/
/e o/
/æ ã ɑ/
/r̩/ is my alternative to the typical Lakes Plain high fricated vowel. It could possibly be realized as a syllabic approximant like American /r/, or as a syllabic voiced retroflex fricative, or perhaps other similar realizations.
/ã/ nasalizes the whole syllable, causing preceding /b d/ to be realized as [m n].
A syllable may maximally consist of a consonant, an onglide vowel, a nucleus vowel, and an offglide vowel. Only the nucleus vowel is obligatory. /i u r̩/ may occur in the onglide and offglide; all vowels may occur in the nucleus.
A list of permissible vowel combinations (with /ɑ/ noted as <a>, /r̩/ as <r>, and onglide /i u/ as <y w>):
wi we wa wæ wã wo wr
ye ya yæ yã yo yu yr
re ra ræ rã ro ru
iu ir wiu wir riu rir
ei eu er wei weu wer yei yeu yer rei reu rer
ai au ar wai wau war yai yau yar rai rau rar
æi æu ær wæi wæu wær yæi yæu yær ræi ræu rær
ãi ãu ãr wãi wãu wãr yãi yãu yãr rãi rãu rãr
oi ou or woi wou wor yoi you yor roi rou ror
ui ur yui yur rui rur
However not all of these will necessarily occur, or occur equally often. In principle, 707 syllables are possible.
No tone, or if so, it will be a very minimal system. Most words are monosyllabic.
/p t k/
/b d/
/s/
That's my starting point for the consonants, at least. There might be more.
The vowels I have thought more about:
/r̩/
/i u/
/e o/
/æ ã ɑ/
/r̩/ is my alternative to the typical Lakes Plain high fricated vowel. It could possibly be realized as a syllabic approximant like American /r/, or as a syllabic voiced retroflex fricative, or perhaps other similar realizations.
/ã/ nasalizes the whole syllable, causing preceding /b d/ to be realized as [m n].
A syllable may maximally consist of a consonant, an onglide vowel, a nucleus vowel, and an offglide vowel. Only the nucleus vowel is obligatory. /i u r̩/ may occur in the onglide and offglide; all vowels may occur in the nucleus.
A list of permissible vowel combinations (with /ɑ/ noted as <a>, /r̩/ as <r>, and onglide /i u/ as <y w>):
wi we wa wæ wã wo wr
ye ya yæ yã yo yu yr
re ra ræ rã ro ru
iu ir wiu wir riu rir
ei eu er wei weu wer yei yeu yer rei reu rer
ai au ar wai wau war yai yau yar rai rau rar
æi æu ær wæi wæu wær yæi yæu yær ræi ræu rær
ãi ãu ãr wãi wãu wãr yãi yãu yãr rãi rãu rãr
oi ou or woi wou wor yoi you yor roi rou ror
ui ur yui yur rui rur
However not all of these will necessarily occur, or occur equally often. In principle, 707 syllables are possible.
No tone, or if so, it will be a very minimal system. Most words are monosyllabic.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Probably what eastern Grasslands Click languages will look like:
Code: Select all
p k ʔ
b d̺
ɗ̻ ɗ̺
m n̻ n̺ ɲ ŋ
s̺
ʋ ɫ̻ ɾ̺
i
ɛ o
a
-
- sinic
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Something a bit more Eurasian (if not European) inspired by some allophony I had been considering for my pseudo-Lakes-Plain inventory above.
Starting with an inventory like this:
/m n/
/p t k/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/b d g/
/s h/
/l r/
/w j/
The aspirated stops undergo a Siouan-like change where the aspirated stops develop into stop-fricative clusters conditioned by the following vowel. Perhaps in a European setting, these stops are first written while early in this shift, and come to be represented as <pch tch kch>.
This is concurrent with a tendency for other stop-fricative clusters to develop. /r/ becomes /ʐ/, devoicing after voiceless segments. /w/ becomes /v/, also devoicing after voiceless segments.
/l/ then undergoes vocalization to /w/ in certain circumstances. Remaining /l/ may become /ɾ/ in certain circumstances, reminiscent of the change in regional Brazilian Portuguese. Perhaps a round of palatalization also occurs.
Ultimately we end up with something like:
/m n ɲ/
/p t c k/
/b d ɟ g/
/f s ʂ h/
/v ʐ/
/l r/
/w j/
And with a conservative orthography, spellings like the following (with not allophonic detail not noted above):
<tcham> [txam]
<tchok> [txʷok]
<tchil> [tʃiw]
<pchaw> [pxaf]
<pchid> [pʃit]
<kchorn> [kxʷoʐɳ]
<kchili> [kʃili]
<brud> [bʐut]
<prat> [pʂat]
<graj> [gʐaj]
<plima> [pɾima]
<njor> [ɲoʂ]
<djeli> [ɟeli]
Starting with an inventory like this:
/m n/
/p t k/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/b d g/
/s h/
/l r/
/w j/
The aspirated stops undergo a Siouan-like change where the aspirated stops develop into stop-fricative clusters conditioned by the following vowel. Perhaps in a European setting, these stops are first written while early in this shift, and come to be represented as <pch tch kch>.
This is concurrent with a tendency for other stop-fricative clusters to develop. /r/ becomes /ʐ/, devoicing after voiceless segments. /w/ becomes /v/, also devoicing after voiceless segments.
/l/ then undergoes vocalization to /w/ in certain circumstances. Remaining /l/ may become /ɾ/ in certain circumstances, reminiscent of the change in regional Brazilian Portuguese. Perhaps a round of palatalization also occurs.
Ultimately we end up with something like:
/m n ɲ/
/p t c k/
/b d ɟ g/
/f s ʂ h/
/v ʐ/
/l r/
/w j/
And with a conservative orthography, spellings like the following (with not allophonic detail not noted above):
<tcham> [txam]
<tchok> [txʷok]
<tchil> [tʃiw]
<pchaw> [pxaf]
<pchid> [pʃit]
<kchorn> [kxʷoʐɳ]
<kchili> [kʃili]
<brud> [bʐut]
<prat> [pʂat]
<graj> [gʐaj]
<plima> [pɾima]
<njor> [ɲoʂ]
<djeli> [ɟeli]
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
This is very cool. A distinctly pleasing aesthetic, and with a Eurolang.Porphyrogenitos wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024 19:47 Something a bit more Eurasian (if not European) inspired by some allophony I had been considering for my pseudo-Lakes-Plain inventory above.
Starting with an inventory like this:
/m n/
/p t k/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/b d g/
/s h/
/l r/
/w j/
The aspirated stops undergo a Siouan-like change where the aspirated stops develop into stop-fricative clusters conditioned by the following vowel. Perhaps in a European setting, these stops are first written while early in this shift, and come to be represented as <pch tch kch>.
This is concurrent with a tendency for other stop-fricative clusters to develop. /r/ becomes /ʐ/, devoicing after voiceless segments. /w/ becomes /v/, also devoicing after voiceless segments.
/l/ then undergoes vocalization to /w/ in certain circumstances. Remaining /l/ may become /ɾ/ in certain circumstances, reminiscent of the change in regional Brazilian Portuguese. Perhaps a round of palatalization also occurs.
Ultimately we end up with something like:
/m n ɲ/
/p t c k/
/b d ɟ g/
/f s ʂ h/
/v ʐ/
/l r/
/w j/
And with a conservative orthography, spellings like the following (with not allophonic detail not noted above):
<tcham> [txam]
<tchok> [txʷok]
<tchil> [tʃiw]
<pchaw> [pxaf]
<pchid> [pʃit]
<kchorn> [kxʷoʐɳ]
<kchili> [kʃili]
<brud> [bʐut]
<prat> [pʂat]
<graj> [gʐaj]
<plima> [pɾima]
<njor> [ɲoʂ]
<djeli> [ɟeli]
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I really like these. I may even steal some bits of this.Porphyrogenitos wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024 19:47 <tcham> [txam]
<tchok> [txʷok]
<tchil> [tʃiw]
<pchaw> [pxaf]
<pchid> [pʃit]
<kchorn> [kxʷoʐɳ]
<kchili> [kʃili]
<brud> [bʐut]
<prat> [pʂat]
<graj> [gʐaj]
<plima> [pɾima]
<njor> [ɲoʂ]
<djeli> [ɟeli]
[tʃiw] especially feels super Brazilian Portuguese-y to me, because, unless I'm wrong, it is a Brazilian Portuguese word. It means tilde, or alternatively, something unimportant or of little worth (like this post).
And we love some [pʃ].
Proud member of the myopic-trans-southerner-Viossa-girl-with-two-cats-who-joined-on-September-6th-2022 gang
2c2ef0 Areyaxi family Arskiilz Kahóra Xúuuatxia Alushi [Unnamed] Ẹlnk kakúsan
my garbage Ɛĭ3
she/her
2c2ef0 Areyaxi family Arskiilz Kahóra Xúuuatxia Alushi [Unnamed] Ẹlnk kakúsan
my garbage Ɛĭ3
she/her
- Creyeditor
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I was actually thinking about a relatively small inventory with some interesting onset clusters because I recently noticed I can produce them.
/p t ts k/
/f s x/
/m n/
/v~w l/
Onset clusters have to agree in voicing and differ in place of articulation. Plosive-plosive clusters and nasal-nasal clusters are not allowed. They also cannot have ascending sonority. IINM this gives the following two-comsonant clusters (clusters that I don't like are in brackets):
ps px tf tx tsf tsx kf ks
(fs) fx sf sx (xf) (xs)
ml (nv)
vl (lv)
Maybe /s/ can become postalveolar if it precedes a fricative (and the same for /ts/ before /x/)? Anyway, coupled with a /a e i o u/ + length and plosive or nasal codas this gives words like the following monosyllabic words:
/psa:n/
/vlep/
/sxi:m/
/mlok/
/tsfu:t/
/txam/
/kfe:k/
/fxin/
/pxo:p/
I was also thinking that plosives are aspirated when in simple onset position at the beginning of a word.
The resemblance to the preceding post is a coincidence, I think.
/p t ts k/
/f s x/
/m n/
/v~w l/
Onset clusters have to agree in voicing and differ in place of articulation. Plosive-plosive clusters and nasal-nasal clusters are not allowed. They also cannot have ascending sonority. IINM this gives the following two-comsonant clusters (clusters that I don't like are in brackets):
ps px tf tx tsf tsx kf ks
(fs) fx sf sx (xf) (xs)
ml (nv)
vl (lv)
Maybe /s/ can become postalveolar if it precedes a fricative (and the same for /ts/ before /x/)? Anyway, coupled with a /a e i o u/ + length and plosive or nasal codas this gives words like the following monosyllabic words:
/psa:n/
/vlep/
/sxi:m/
/mlok/
/tsfu:t/
/txam/
/kfe:k/
/fxin/
/pxo:p/
I was also thinking that plosives are aspirated when in simple onset position at the beginning of a word.
The resemblance to the preceding post is a coincidence, I think.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
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Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
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- sinic
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- Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Thanks! Feel free to steal what you want!Arayaz wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024 21:28
I really like these. I may even steal some bits of this.
[tʃiw] especially feels super Brazilian Portuguese-y to me, because, unless I'm wrong, it is a Brazilian Portuguese word. It means tilde, or alternatively, something unimportant or of little worth (like this post).
And we love some [pʃ].
I really like this, too! It actually reminds me of a concept I had for another 6-consonant microinventory that I'm not sure if I posted:Creyeditor wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024 22:27 I was actually thinking about a relatively small inventory with some interesting onset clusters because I recently noticed I can produce them.
/p t ts k/
/f s x/
/m n/
/v~w l/
Onset clusters have to agree in voicing and differ in place of articulation. Plosive-plosive clusters and nasal-nasal clusters are not allowed. They also cannot have ascending sonority. IINM this gives the following two-comsonant clusters (clusters that I don't like are in brackets):
/m n/
/p t k/
/s/
With the following syllable-initial clusters:
mn ms nm ns
pn pt pk ps
tm tp tk ts
km kn kp kt ks
Plus any sC or sCC clusters, and perhaps tsn- from an earlier tn-.
However this inventory is a bit too restrictive, and the stop-stop clusters aren't all so pretty. I like your concept a bit more.
I think I would go with your inventory, maybe minus /l/ and just considering [f] an allophone of /v/, but change the rules to allow clusters of ascending sonority, or equal sonority (with the stipulation that stop-stop and nasal-nasal clusters must be alveolar-final):
ps px pt pn
tv tx tm
tsv tsx tsm tsn
kv ks kt kn km
sv sx sm sn
xv xs xm xn
vm vn
mn
This would mean a sonority hierarchy that looks like:
/p t ts k/ - /s x/ - /v/ - /m n/
Giving monosyllabic words like:
psat
vnu:m
sxe:n
xvak
kmits
tsna:
tsvi:t
kse
su
mnu:k
xso:v
tmip
kvan
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Ooo, I am loving the love for heterorganics. Gemination is appreciable, but dissimilating consonants make a word sound like more. It's hard to explain.
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
- Creyeditor
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I like the /pn kn/ cluster. I should maybe add them (and also /fn/) and allophonically devoice nasals in there. And maybe [f] is really an allophone of /v/ (or [v] of /f/) at least in clusters they are in complementary distribution. That leaves me with /pl/ and /kl/ clusters, which I want to exclude because they are boring but they are also kind of parallel to /pn/ and /kn/ and I really like the lateral in /ml/. Maybe /l/ is just special in that it cannot devoice or something.Porphyrogenitos wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024 02:29I really like this, too! It actually reminds me of a concept I had for another 6-consonant microinventory that I'm not sure if I posted:Creyeditor wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024 22:27 I was actually thinking about a relatively small inventory with some interesting onset clusters because I recently noticed I can produce them.
/p t ts k/
/f s x/
/m n/
/v~w l/
Onset clusters have to agree in voicing and differ in place of articulation. Plosive-plosive clusters and nasal-nasal clusters are not allowed. They also cannot have ascending sonority. IINM this gives the following two-comsonant clusters (clusters that I don't like are in brackets):
/m n/
/p t k/
/s/
With the following syllable-initial clusters:
mn ms nm ns
pn pt pk ps
tm tp tk ts
km kn kp kt ks
Plus any sC or sCC clusters, and perhaps tsn- from an earlier tn-.
However this inventory is a bit too restrictive, and the stop-stop clusters aren't all so pretty. I like your concept a bit more.
I think I would go with your inventory, maybe minus /l/ and just considering [f] an allophone of /v/, but change the rules to allow clusters of ascending sonority, or equal sonority (with the stipulation that stop-stop and nasal-nasal clusters must be alveolar-final):
ps px pt pn
tv tx tm
tsv tsx tsm tsn
kv ks kt kn km
sv sx sm sn
xv xs xm xn
vm vn
mn
This would mean a sonority hierarchy that looks like:
/p t ts k/ - /s x/ - /v/ - /m n/
Giving monosyllabic words like:
psat
vnu:m
sxe:n
xvak
kmits
tsna:
tsvi:t
kse
su
mnu:k
xso:v
tmip
kvan
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
- VaptuantaDoi
- roman
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Some Lakes Plain languages have pretty cool clusters like [nɾ] or [hn] or [mn]. Here's my submission for "minimalist inventory + clusters"
/t t͡ɕ k/
/b d d͡ʑ ɡ/
/s x/
/i̝ ɪ ɛ ɐ/
+ some tones
monosyllabic +/– pre-initial (x t k)(ɛ ɐ)
x < *p
Syllable structure is CCVVC; the only coda is /x/ which may not follow /i̝/. Onset clusters may freely take a voiced stop as the second element, in which position said voiced stops are elided to [β̞ ɾ j ŋ]; the only clusters of these which do not occur are */t͡ɕd͡ʑ d͡ʑd͡ʑ xd͡ʑ td͡ʑ kd͡ʑ ɡd͡ʑ xd͡ʑ ɡɡ/. Also permited are /xs ks/. Word-initial voiced stops are nasalised ([m n ɲ ŋ]) including before another consonant. This means we get the following (phonetic) onset clusters:
tβ̞ tɾ tj tŋ
t͡ɕβ̞ t͡ɕɾ t͡ɕŋ
kβ̞ kɾ kʕ ks
mβ̞ mɾ mj mŋ
nβ̞ nɾ nj nŋ
ɲβ̞ ɲɾ ɲŋ
ŋβ̞ ŋɾ
sβ̞ sɾ sj sŋ
hβ̞ hɾ hŋ xs
The vowel system instability is resolved by by /i̝ ɪ ɛ ɐ/ rounding to [y̝ u œ ɔ] when the first member of a vowel sequence or in a syllable with a labial in the onset:
/t͡ɕbi̝/ → [t͡ɕβ̞y̝]
/bd͡ʑɪ/ → [mju]
/ɡɐɐx/ → [ŋɔ͡ɐχ]
Some more words
/xɛɡdɪ̌x/ → [xɛ̀ɡɾɪ̌x̟]
/xdɐ́/ → [hɾɐ́]
/bd͡ʑì̝ɪ/ → [mjỳ̝͡ù]
/sbɐ̀x/ → [sβ̞ɔ̀p̚]
/kdɐ̂/ → [kɾɐ̂]
/dgɛ́ɐx/ → [nŋœ́͡ɐ́χ]
/t͡ɕdɪ̂/ → [t͡ɕɾɪ̂]
/tɛɡbî̝ɐ/ → [tɛ́ɡβ̞ý̝͡ɐ̀]
/xsɐ̌ɪ/ → [xsɔ̀͡ɪ́]
/tgɛ̀ɛx/ → [tŋœ̀͡ɛ̀x]
/ddí̝/ → [nɾí̝]
I'm not sure if I like this or hate it.
/t t͡ɕ k/
/b d d͡ʑ ɡ/
/s x/
/i̝ ɪ ɛ ɐ/
+ some tones
monosyllabic +/– pre-initial (x t k)(ɛ ɐ)
x < *p
Syllable structure is CCVVC; the only coda is /x/ which may not follow /i̝/. Onset clusters may freely take a voiced stop as the second element, in which position said voiced stops are elided to [β̞ ɾ j ŋ]; the only clusters of these which do not occur are */t͡ɕd͡ʑ d͡ʑd͡ʑ xd͡ʑ td͡ʑ kd͡ʑ ɡd͡ʑ xd͡ʑ ɡɡ/. Also permited are /xs ks/. Word-initial voiced stops are nasalised ([m n ɲ ŋ]) including before another consonant. This means we get the following (phonetic) onset clusters:
tβ̞ tɾ tj tŋ
t͡ɕβ̞ t͡ɕɾ t͡ɕŋ
kβ̞ kɾ kʕ ks
mβ̞ mɾ mj mŋ
nβ̞ nɾ nj nŋ
ɲβ̞ ɲɾ ɲŋ
ŋβ̞ ŋɾ
sβ̞ sɾ sj sŋ
hβ̞ hɾ hŋ xs
The vowel system instability is resolved by by /i̝ ɪ ɛ ɐ/ rounding to [y̝ u œ ɔ] when the first member of a vowel sequence or in a syllable with a labial in the onset:
/t͡ɕbi̝/ → [t͡ɕβ̞y̝]
/bd͡ʑɪ/ → [mju]
/ɡɐɐx/ → [ŋɔ͡ɐχ]
Some more words
/xɛɡdɪ̌x/ → [xɛ̀ɡɾɪ̌x̟]
/xdɐ́/ → [hɾɐ́]
/bd͡ʑì̝ɪ/ → [mjỳ̝͡ù]
/sbɐ̀x/ → [sβ̞ɔ̀p̚]
/kdɐ̂/ → [kɾɐ̂]
/dgɛ́ɐx/ → [nŋœ́͡ɐ́χ]
/t͡ɕdɪ̂/ → [t͡ɕɾɪ̂]
/tɛɡbî̝ɐ/ → [tɛ́ɡβ̞ý̝͡ɐ̀]
/xsɐ̌ɪ/ → [xsɔ̀͡ɪ́]
/tgɛ̀ɛx/ → [tŋœ̀͡ɛ̀x]
/ddí̝/ → [nɾí̝]
I'm not sure if I like this or hate it.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/m n/
/f s/
/ɹ/
/p t k/
/b d g/
/a e i o/
V#: /a e i o/ -> /ʌ ə ə ɔ/
Syllable structure: (s, f)(T)(ɹ)V(V2)(ɹ)(s, f)(T) etc.
But V(V2)(ɹ)(s, f)(T)(ɹ)V(V2) etc. is valid.
/s f/ next to /b d g/ become voiced become /z v/.
/s/ becomes /ʂ/ in cluster with /ɹ/.
It'd probably be fun to add palatialization to this as well.
/f s/
/ɹ/
/p t k/
/b d g/
/a e i o/
V#: /a e i o/ -> /ʌ ə ə ɔ/
Syllable structure: (s, f)(T)(ɹ)V(V2)(ɹ)(s, f)(T) etc.
But V(V2)(ɹ)(s, f)(T)(ɹ)V(V2) etc. is valid.
/s f/ next to /b d g/ become voiced become /z v/.
/s/ becomes /ʂ/ in cluster with /ɹ/.
It'd probably be fun to add palatialization to this as well.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Still one version
p t k kʷ ʔ <p t k kw '>
t͡s k͡s <c x>
s h <s h>
m n ŋ <m n ng>
l ɹ j w <l r y w>
i ʉ <i u>
o <o>
ä <a>
Vowels can be short or long and have low or high tone. (No contours even on long vowels.)
/p t k kʷ ʔ s h m n ŋ/ can be geminated. /hh/ is pronounced [x:].
Geminates appear inter-vocally and word-finally.
Maximal syllable structure: CVC (or maybe CVʔC)
Maybe Japanese-style /h/ -> [f] / _ʉ
also
/ʉ/ -> / kʷ _ (this should say after kʷ but the code does things)
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Would written geminated /ʔ/ be <">? It would be intuitive but it strikes my eye oddly.
Also, fan of them both.
Also, fan of them both.
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Probably yes.
Some people use <q> for /ʔ/ but I don't like it either. Do you have some other options?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760