Development Thread: International Auxlang for Avianlithoids

[AstroWildcat]

These methane-based, insectoid bird-like aliens - called Avianlithoids - speak only in clicking noises like a cicada - right down to having a tymbal-like organ in their anatomy. The opening is in the back of their mouth like with a bird's larynx. They have tongues and teeth as well, but no lips. The frequency of their clicks are about 65Hz-988Hz at 65dB on average. They are able to detect differences in pitch every 25Hz, and thus should be able to create 36 tones they can use for sounds. I imagine their languages are Morse code like, utilizing short and long clicks.



This conlang I am developing for them - called Standard International Language for now - is an international auxlang that diplomats on their home planet use, and is a global language in their planetary colonies.

So far, I have a (really bad) IPA pulled together for these aliens here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0.

As of now the IPA is moreso just "here's their level of usage and similarity in their language translated to our IPA equivalents" and it's based on common vowels and consonants found in whispering languages, as well as increasing pitch frequency.

Any feedback is much appreciated. I don't mind scrapping everything if worse comes to worse. Some guidance would be much appreciated, as this is all very new to me.

[Arayaz]

Hello!

I checked out your IPA wrangling, and it doesn't seem half bad, though it is pretty confusing to me. What do the "tones" indicate? Is that the pitch of the clicks?

Also, remember that just because they can detect 36 different pitches, does not mean that they will. Humans can distinguish a great many pitches too, but the most unique pitches we've found in any tonal language is five. Edit: There likely is a language with more, this is just what I've seen.

Might I suggest a new take on converting it to the IPA? It sounds like you have a few possible places of articulation (and good job omitting uvular, since most species don't have uvulas), and each one might have a stop, a fricative, and a nasal if they have a nose, as well as the tones. The IPA uses superscript numbers: ¹ ² ³ ⁴ ⁵ to indicate tones, so if you have 9 or fewer separate pitches, you could use those. Also, you could have a mechanic like voicing, whereby a sound could have two different forms: with and without the clicking.

So a transcription might be something like [ʒ²n⁶¹], for a postalveolar (which, by the way, is about the same as palatal) fricative, with a fairly low tone, followed by an alveolar nasal with a sharp falling tone. It could be romanized something like ż2n61, which is an aesthetic with an acquired taste but doesn't look half bad, and is great for an alien language.

[AstroWildcat]

Hello!

I checked out your IPA wrangling, and it doesn't seem half bad, though it is pretty confusing to me. What do the "tones" indicate? Is that the pitch of the clicks?

Also, remember that just because they can detect 36 different pitches, does not mean that they will. Humans can distinguish a great many pitches too, but the most unique pitches we've found in any tonal language is five.

Might I suggest a new take on converting it to the IPA? It sounds like you have a few possible places of articulation (and good job omitting uvular, since most species don't have uvulas), and each one might have a stop, a fricative, and a nasal if they have a nose, as well as the tones. The IPA uses superscript numbers: ¹ ² ³ ⁴ ⁵ to indicate tones, so if you have 9 or fewer separate pitches, you could use those. Also, you could have a mechanic like voicing, whereby a sound could have two different forms: with and without the clicking.

So a transcription might be something like [ʒ²n⁶¹], for a postalveolar (which, by the way, is about the same as palatal) fricative, with a fairly low tone, followed by an alveolar nasal with a sharp falling tone. It could be romanized something like ż2n61, which is an aesthetic with an acquired taste but doesn't look half bad, and is great for an alien language.

Thanks! I was pretty worried that I had no idea on what I was doing. The tones do indicate pitches.

As of now, I'm trying to figure out all possible sounds they can make and what those can translate to in IPA.

Anyways, thank you for your input, I'm definitely going to implement what you said when I start working on the phonology of the proto-language and the auxlang. Sounds so much easier and way more logical than my current methodology.

[Arayaz]

Thanks! I was pretty worried that I had no idea on what I was doing.

Hey, no problem. Happy to help.

As of now, I'm trying to figure out all possible sounds they can make and what those can translate to in IPA.

I looked at your new IPA, and it's a HUGE improvement. A couple notes:
- θ and ð are listed as nasals...? They're fricatives in the IPA, which I think is what you meant to do. If you're using them for the dental nasals, the symbols for the dental nasals are /n̪/ (voiced) and /n̪̊/ (voiceless).
- Hate to break it to you, but you have even more potential consonant phonemes! Dental plosives (/t̪, d̪/) are used instead of /t, d/ in lots of languages on Earth (e.g. Spanish); no reason to suspect there'd be none in your world, if they're possible with the vocal tract. A few even have a phonemic contrast. Also, the voiceless alveolar nasals are missing, and the velar nasals.
- Are vowels possible?

[Salmoneus]

These methane-based, insectoid bird-like aliens - called Avianlithoids - speak only in clicking noises like a cicada - right down to having a tymbal-like organ in their anatomy. The opening is in the back of their mouth like with a bird's larynx. They have tongues and teeth as well, but no lips. The frequency of their clicks are about 65Hz-988Hz at 65dB on average. They are able to detect differences in pitch every 25Hz, and thus should be able to create 36 tones they can use for sounds.

I'm afraid it doesn't quite work that way, generally.
Human tonal contasts are not based on absolute pitch - they're based on pitch relative to the average pitch of the utterance. A system using absolute pitch is conceptually perfectly possible, but seems unlikely in practice, because it would require the speech organs of each individual to be identical and invariant. Human females, for instance, generally speak at a frequency about twice that of a human male. Speaking frequency changes with age, but also changes with injury to the speech organs - smokers, for instance, often develop deeper voices. Elderly people sometimes develop lighter voices. If someone's voice has "deteriorated" a lot it can sometime be hard work understanding them - but at least they're not literally saying different words! If you use absolute pitch, you'd be at risk of somebody accidentally saying entirely different words whenever they got a cold! [well, humans can have this problem too, due to neutraliation of the nasalisation contrast, but in most languagages that contrast doesn't carry enough information to make their speech unintelligeable].

Humans can detect differences in pitch of about 3.5Hz, fwiw. However, that's between adjacent pitches - recognising them in isolation is much harder. Many people have literally zero absolute pitch recognition, which is probably a big part of why tone is a minor part of human languages!

Also fwiw, human languages vary between 11 possible distinctive sounds and... well, somewhere between 85 and 160, depending on definitions, probably.

I imagine their languages are Morse code like, utilizing short and long clicks.

I'm not sure what you mean by "long clicks". To me, a click is by definition a momentary thing?

So far, I have a (really bad) IPA pulled together for these aliens here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0.

As of now the IPA is moreso just "here's their level of usage and similarity in their language translated to our IPA equivalents" and it's based on common vowels and consonants found in whispering languages, as well as increasing pitch frequency.

I'm not sure I understand what this is, or why.

Is this just an attempt to romanise the language - that is, spell it in English? If so, I'd avoid unnecessarily strange letters. Is it an attempt to actually transcribe it in IPA? If so, I don't know why a language made up of cricket-clicks would be so like English in its sound!

[Salmoneus]

Thanks! I was pretty worried that I had no idea on what I was doing.

Hey, no problem. Happy to help.

As of now, I'm trying to figure out all possible sounds they can make and what those can translate to in IPA.

I looked at your new IPA, and it's a HUGE improvement. A couple notes:
- θ and ð are listed as nasals...? They're fricatives in the IPA, which I think is what you meant to do. If you're using them for the dental nasals, the symbols for the dental nasals are /n̪/ (voiced) and /n̪̊/ (voiceless).
- Hate to break it to you, but you have even more potential consonant phonemes! Dental plosives (/t̪, d̪/) are used instead of /t, d/ in lots of languages on Earth (e.g. Spanish); no reason to suspect there'd be none in your world, if they're possible with the vocal tract. A few even have a phonemic contrast. Also, the voiceless alveolar nasals are missing, and the velar nasals.
- Are vowels possible?

Why would any of these sounds exist in this language, if the language is based on clicks made by a special organ? Even if it wasn't, there's no reason to imagine that an alien species would distinctive 'dental' and 'alveolar' phonemes, as these terms are based on human anatomy. You don't even know whether these people even have teeth!

[AstroWildcat]

A system using absolute pitch is conceptually perfectly possible, but seems unlikely in practice, because it would require the speech organs of each individual to be identical and invariant.

I see. Thank you for the input! Is there any better language systems that can be used that rely on Morse-code clicking, then? Not mad, but it's an idea I still love and would prefer to not stray from it too much.

I'm not sure I understand what this is, or why.

Is this just an attempt to romanise the language - that is, spell it in English? If so, I'd avoid unnecessarily strange letters. Is it an attempt to actually transcribe it in IPA? If so, I don't know why a language made up of cricket-clicks would be so like English in its sound!

Not sure. It was the latter, but romanising the language may be a better move. There's other languages being spoken in this universe, I imagine, so I'm not opposed to using more stranger letters, I guess.

You don't even know whether these people even have teeth!

They do have teeth. Not human-like teeth, but teeth nonetheless.

From what it seems, a total do-over is going to be needed for these guys, which is fine.

[Arayaz]

Thanks! I was pretty worried that I had no idea on what I was doing.

Hey, no problem. Happy to help.

As of now, I'm trying to figure out all possible sounds they can make and what those can translate to in IPA.

I looked at your new IPA, and it's a HUGE improvement. A couple notes:
- θ and ð are listed as nasals...? They're fricatives in the IPA, which I think is what you meant to do. If you're using them for the dental nasals, the symbols for the dental nasals are /n̪/ (voiced) and /n̪̊/ (voiceless).
- Hate to break it to you, but you have even more potential consonant phonemes! Dental plosives (/t̪, d̪/) are used instead of /t, d/ in lots of languages on Earth (e.g. Spanish); no reason to suspect there'd be none in your world, if they're possible with the vocal tract. A few even have a phonemic contrast. Also, the voiceless alveolar nasals are missing, and the velar nasals.
- Are vowels possible?

Why would any of these sounds exist in this language, if the language is based on clicks made by a special organ? Even if it wasn't, there's no reason to imagine that an alien species would distinctive 'dental' and 'alveolar' phonemes, as these terms are based on human anatomy. You don't even know whether these people even have teeth!

Wildcat says "they have tongues and teeth as well, but no lips" in their first post. It is also evident from their previous IPA that the click mechanic is similar to voicing, with the tongue forming various consonants.

[AstroWildcat]

Thanks! I was pretty worried that I had no idea on what I was doing.

Hey, no problem. Happy to help.

As of now, I'm trying to figure out all possible sounds they can make and what those can translate to in IPA.

I looked at your new IPA, and it's a HUGE improvement. A couple notes:
- θ and ð are listed as nasals...? They're fricatives in the IPA, which I think is what you meant to do. If you're using them for the dental nasals, the symbols for the dental nasals are /n̪/ (voiced) and /n̪̊/ (voiceless).
- Hate to break it to you, but you have even more potential consonant phonemes! Dental plosives (/t̪, d̪/) are used instead of /t, d/ in lots of languages on Earth (e.g. Spanish); no reason to suspect there'd be none in your world, if they're possible with the vocal tract. A few even have a phonemic contrast. Also, the voiceless alveolar nasals are missing, and the velar nasals.
- Are vowels possible?

Thank you! Vowels should be possible, they're listed in Sheet 2 of the document.

[Arayaz]

Thank you! Vowels should be possible, they're listed in Sheet 2 of the document.

Vowels should be able to have the same tones as consonants, right?

Also, /ɒ/ is a back vowel.